Joel Garner vs. Dennis Lillee (Tests only)

[Top_Cat]

Without running the numbers through some nerdy stats software, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that the difference between averages and economy rates will be significant but the difference between strike-rates, 5-fers and 10-fers won't be.

 

[Top_Cat]

Haha, damn I'm good. Can't be ****ed posting a screengrab.

All factors in the table listed about were not significant at 0.05 level (runs scored against and number of 5-fers were close to significance, though) other than the following;

Average, sig, p = 0.04
Econ, sig, p = 0.03

If I get a chance, I'll run some more tests.

 

[Migara]

Haha, damn I'm good. Can't be ****ed posting a screengrab.

All factors in the table listed about were not significant at 0.05 level (runs scored against and number of 5-fers were close to significance, though) other than the following;

Average, sig, p = 0.04
Econ, sig, p = 0.03

If I get a chance, I'll run some more tests.

can you elaborate on this, what were actually compared? Multi variate regression?

 

[Top_Cat]

Nothing so elaborate, just t-tests. Wouldn't mind modelling them, though.

 

[Sir Alex]

The "Bowler X played his home games in Pakistan, flat pitches, more impressive" argument doesn't wash. Shoaib will be used to Pakistani pitches, have grown up bowling on them, and will have tailored his game to be successful on those pitches.

The wickets for domestic cricket were helpful for pace bowlers during his time (and continues to be like that till today I think, that's why Pakistan seems to have a never ending line of good pace bowlers) but when it came to International cricket, somehow have been ridiculously flat. So the wickets that he grew upon aren't exactly the wickets he bowled on in test cricket, particularly in the 90s.

 

[Johan]

This seems like it could use a bump

 

[Migara]

Nothing so elaborate, just t-tests. Wouldn't mind modelling them, though.

t-tests are in correct. The number of 5 fors and 10 fors (and centuries too) assume a poisson distribution. You have to use a non parametric test or do a log transformation.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Garner....proved himself all over the world including the subcontinent.

Yep. Garner and Marshall seemed more unplayable to me than Lillee. But you never know with Lillee, had he played more games in the SC, with his skill he might have changed things around.

 

[Johan]

regarding Garner's lack of 5 fers , is Botham a Better bowler then Garner and Such because he has a high volume of 5 fers? Garner was distributing wickets with Holding/Roberts/Marshall e.t.c. e.t.c. and was a change bowler generally, no one expects 5 fers and 10 fers from him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

5-fors, 10-fors, 100s, 50s, wickets per match, wickets per innings

all bull**** metrics that are affected just as much, if not more, by factors outside a player's control than their actual abilities and performance. If your argument is relying on those stats it's a ****ty argument

 

[Chrish]

DK underrated by fans while Garner underrated by experts..

 

[Chrish]

Garner must have been a true nightmare to face from a batsmen POV. Impossible to have any breathing room and to make matter worse, he could also bowl an accurate yorker. The type any batsman would dread batting against.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

regarding Garner's lack of 5 fers , is Botham a Better bowler then Garner and Such because he has a high volume of 5 fers? Garner was distributing wickets with Holding/Roberts/Marshall e.t.c. e.t.c. and was a change bowler generally, no one expects 5 fers and 10 fers from him.

Being in the company of other ATGs helps to achieve better average and SR though..

Lillee > Garner.

 

[Johan]

Being in the company of other ATGs helps to achieve better average and SR though..

Lillee > Garner.

only if most your wickets are lower order or something , which isn't the case with Garner

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

only if most your wickets are lower order or something , which isn't the case with Garner

Its not like that, when there is no breathing space between ATGs, batsmen tends to be easy preys.. Thats how it works.

 

[Johan]

Its not like that, when there is no breathing space between ATGs, batsmen tends to be easy preys.. Thats how it works.

Double edged sword , one could argue it would mean the batsmen would play more carefully at all times thus harder to get out

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Double edged sword , one could argue it would mean the batsmen would play more carefully at all times thus harder to get out

That means.. Having an ATG bowling attack is a disadvantage.. Compared to a mediocre one. WOW ?

 

[subshakerz]

regarding Garner's lack of 5 fers , is Botham a Better bowler then Garner and Such because he has a high volume of 5 fers? Garner was distributing wickets with Holding/Roberts/Marshall e.t.c. e.t.c. and was a change bowler generally, no one expects 5 fers and 10 fers from him.

I think lack of fifers is an issue. But having checked with Garner, it seems more the case that his lack of fifers is because he was played as third bowler.

Towards the end of his career, he started opening the bowling and took 5 out of 7 of his fifers in a short time.

 

[subshakerz]

I think Garner was likely a better bowler than Lillee but call me a stickler, I think a bowler in the modern era should have 300 or thereabout wickets to be among the greatest of the greatest ever. Call it a minimum output requirement.

So for that and based on Lillee's high peer rating, I chose Lillee.

 

[Chrish]

List of line & length bowlers:

Vince van der Bijl
Garner
Hadlee
Ambrose
McGrath

anyone else ?