Batsmens with the best average against Australia and West Indies?

[Burgey]

IMO, Laxman's record against Australia is slightly overrated and SRT's record is against the same is highly underrated.

Teja, do you think his overall reputation vs Australia has been inflated by the 281?

 

[Teja.]

Teja, do you think his overall reputation vs Australia has been inflated by the 281?

Make no mistake he is a fantastic batsman, especially against Australia. But Yes, that Immortal Innings inflates his reputation by quite a bit.

 

[Redbacks]

Interested to hear your reasoning behind that. If anything, one could make the opposite argument that Laxman has played more critical innings (281, 148 in Adelaide 2003, 167 in a losing effort in Sydney 2000, crucial little cameos in fourth innings chases in Chennai '01 and Adelaide '03). Sachin has got runs in quite a few draws, especially in Australia. Not that I care, but still.

Was there for the 148 at Adelaide, his use of the wrists when playing MacGill was phenomenal, played him with ease, he looks effortless in the M Waugh, Sachin vein which possibly helps to make him even more revered as a player to watch.

I can see what you mean about SRT, generally oppsition players making runs in Aus means sweet **** all as we would win the series anyway with a big score from an opposition player being to no avail. e.g. Sangakkara.

 

[Teja.]

Interested to hear your reasoning behind that. If anything, one could make the opposite argument that Laxman has played more critical innings (281, 148 in Adelaide 2003, 167 in a losing effort in Sydney 2000, crucial little cameos in fourth innings chases in Chennai '01 and Adelaide '03). Sachin has got runs in quite a few draws, especially in Australia. Not that I care, but still.

Coming up.

 

[vcs]

I could see the argument that it inflates his overall reputation as a batsman, but he has consistently been good against Australia, except for the 2004 home series. Even there, he played a hand in the one game we did manage to win.

 

[Burgey]

Make no mistake he is a fantastic batsman, especially against Australia. But Yes, that Immortal Innings inflates his reputation by quite a bit.

Yeah that may well be right. Such a pleasure to watch when he's on-song.

Certainly something to bear in mind.

 

[vcs]

Was there for the 148 at Adelaide, his use of the wrists when playing MacGill was phenomenal, played him with ease, he looks effortless in the M Waugh, Sachin vein which possibly helps to make him even more revered as a player to watch.

Missed the 148 as I was travelling, but I'll always remember the 2nd innings cameo of 32 that he played in the same match. We were struggling a bit, getting bogged down and had 60 odd to get with 6 wickets in hand, he came in and just made it look so simple. Just waved his bat around, hit MacGill for a few boundaries and got us over the line.

 

[Teja.]

Before I post I hold that I am not entirely obsessed with SRT or I hate Laxman(if anything we were begotten in the same place)

In the last twenty years, Australia has been the side to beat due to a combination of ample pool of talent, Infrastructure and importantly the level of professionalism within the Teams. If we have a statistical look at who performed best there

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

We get names like SRT, Laxman, Sehwag, KP & Lara, most people unanimously hold that Laxman was a better Batsman against Australia than SRT due to a couple of extremely stirring Innings, It is a little known fact that SRT actually averages more than Laxman against Australia despite playing against them for considerably more matches over a longer period of time. But no, I do not consider a difference of one in the averages a deciding factor.

However, what should be considered is the periods in which the players scored their runs.
In the period between 1990-2000 when most people of that age graduate from high school cricket to County Cricket to the early stages of International cricket, Sachin was the lone spark of the Indian batting. There were only two Indian Batsmen in the period who averaged more than forty against Australia in the period(playing more than 5 matches), Sachin(59) and Sidhu(44), With no offense to Sidhu, he was either very good or FA in most matches, either way 44 is not by any measure a godly average. Right from the age of 19, there was enormous pressure on Sachin to succeed against Australia, In most cases if Sachin was out, the match was in the hands of the opposite team. Though Sachin's best Innings against them might be a rung lower than VVS's Innings against them, another reason for them not to be noticed much is because SRT did not have much of a team to push for a victory. For instance as a 19 year old, he scored a blistering ton in Perth which led to the famous comment made by Merv Hughes to Allan Border "This Little Prick will score more runs than you, AB", It was in the same match that Ian Healy described the teenager as the best player he has kept stumps to, and if my memory does not fail me, It was the same match that Barry Richards described Sachin to be the god of cricket. Yet Team India lost that match.

Now coming to Laxman, He didn't perform well at all in his first series against the aussies which is understandable.(Sachin did, though) Then as a 25 year old, with an average of 27.00, he came in and played an Innings for the hearts and an Innings for the history books, regarded by many as the finest of all time. He also did in the 00s against Australia what Sachin did in the 1990s. But there are differences, There was infinitely more pressure on Sachin than on Laxman, Laxman also had a way better bowling attack. Most importantly there were three batsmen averaging over 50 in the team against the opposition instead of one in Sachin's case. There was also Dravid who despite averaging 45 was definitely more solid than Sidhu. Laxman had a batting attack where he could bat with with confidence and was not under undue pressure.(2-3 Innings under extreme pressure are definitely remarkable though)

Therefore, personally I rate Sachin's record against Australia a notch above anyone else in the past 20 years. If you disagree I definitely respect that and I can see why as Lara and Laxman also have fantastic records against the Baggy Green.

 

[GotSpin]

Decent post that. Will always rate Sachin better than Laxman purely because I've been at the SCG to watch a few of his innings and they were fairly spectacular

 

[vcs]

Nice post mate, I can see your reasoning though I feel you are slightly underestimating the number of times Laxman has bailed us out of trouble. Actually, I think this applies to Laxman in general, not just against Australia, he has played so many innings that tend to be a difference in terms of getting a result.

 

[GotSpin]

Nice post mate, I can see your reasoning though I feel you are slightly underestimating the number of times Laxman has bailed us out of trouble. Actually, I think this applies to Laxman in general, not just against Australia, he has played so many innings that tend to be a difference in terms of getting a result.

Yeah I do believe I may be underrating Laxman against Australia, but Tendulkar has been phenomenal, in terms of runs made and the aesthetically pleasing manner in which they're made. He was always the no.1 man that Australia wanted to dismiss as well I feel.

 

[The Sean]

Before I post I hold that I am not entirely obsessed with SRT or I hate Laxman(if anything we were begotten in the same place)

In the last twenty years, Australia has been the side to beat due to a combination of ample pool of talent, Infrastructure and importantly the level of professionalism within the Teams. If we have a statistical look at who performed best there

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

We get names like SRT, Laxman, Sehwag, KP & Lara, most people unanimously hold that Laxman was a better Batsman against Australia than SRT due to a couple of extremely stirring Innings, It is a little known fact that SRT actually averages more than Laxman against Australia despite playing against them for considerably more matches over a longer period of time. But no, I do not consider a difference of one in the averages a deciding factor.

However, what should be considered is the periods in which the players scored their runs.
In the period between 1990-2000 when most people of that age graduate from high school cricket to County Cricket to the early stages of International cricket, Sachin was the lone spark of the Indian batting. There were only two Indian Batsmen in the period who averaged more than forty against Australia in the period(playing more than 5 matches), Sachin(59) and Sidhu(44), With no offense to Sidhu, he was either very good or FA in most matches, either way 44 is not by any measure a godly average. Right from the age of 19, there was enormous pressure on Sachin to succeed against Australia, In most cases if Sachin was out, the match was in the hands of the opposite team. Though Sachin's best Innings against them might be a rung lower than VVS's Innings against them, another reason for them not to be noticed much is because SRT did not ahve much of a team to push for a victory. For instance as a 19 year old, he scored a blistering ton in Perth which led to the famous comment made by Merv Hughes to Allan Border "This Little Prick will score more runs than you, AB", It was in the same match that Ian Healy described the teenager as the best player he has kept stumps to, and if my memory does not fail me, It was the same match that Barry Richards described Sachin to be the god of cricket.

Now coming to Laxman, He didn't perform well at all in his first series against the aussies which is understandable.(Sachin did, though) Then as a 25 year old, with an average of 27.00, he came in and played an Innings for the hearts and an Innings for the history books, regarded by many as the finest of all time. He also did in the 00s against Australia what Sachin did in the 1990s. But there are differences, There was infinitely more pressure on Sachin than on Laxman, Laxman also had a way better bowling attack. Most importantly there were three batsmen averaging over 50 in the team against the opposition instead of one in Sachin's case. There was also Dravid who despite averaging 45 was definitely more solid than Sidhu. Laxman had a batting attack where he could bat with with confidence and was not under undue pressure.(2-3 Innings under extreme pressure are definitely remarkable though)

Therefore, personally I rate Sachin's record against Australia a notch above anyone else in the past 20 years. If you disagree I definitely respect that and I can see why as Lara and Laxman also have fantastic records against the Baggy Green.

This sounds like exactly the kind of thing that someone who is totally obsessed with SRT and/or hates Laxman would say.

Seriously though Teja, that's a top post and your reasoning stands up. VVS, wonderful as he is, has certainly benefited from a more helpful set of circumstances in his best years against Australia than Sachin who, as you say, was playing the lone hand role all-too-often. IIRC it was Tendulkar's batting during Australia's tour of India in '98 that first inspired Steve Waugh to raise the question as to whether he might just be second only to Bradman.

 

[vcs]

While I'm on the topic.. other underappreciated Laxman knocks that come to mind :

- 154* against W. Indies in Kolkata 2002 when he and Sachin batted out a draw.
- 73 against S. Africa in the 2nd innings in Johannesburg 2006.
- 39 against England in Lords 2007 when we sneaked away with the draw.
- 79 in the 2nd innings at Perth in 2008.

All crucial in getting the result.

 

[vcs]

Yeah I do believe I may be underrating Laxman against Australia, but Tendulkar has been phenomenal, in terms of runs made and the aesthetically pleasing manner in which they're made. He was always the no.1 man that Australia wanted to dismiss as well I feel.

Actually, I meant to address Teja with that post () but yeah, the fact that Sachin is always the main man for attacks to dismiss is something to bear in mind. Again, that applies to all teams in general.

 

[Teja.]

While I'm on the topic.. other underappreciated Laxman knocks that come to mind :

- 154* against W. Indies in Kolkata 2002 when he and Sachin batted out a draw.
- 73 against S. Africa in the 2nd innings in Johannesburg 2006.
- 39 against England in Lords 2007 when we sneaked away with the draw.
- 79 in the 2nd innings at Perth in 2008.

All crucial in getting the result.

A lot of Tendulkar's glorious centuries in the 90s against Australia resulted in losses though, there was not a chance of saving the match.

 

[vcs]

A lot of Tendulkar's glorious centuries in the 90s against Australia resulted in losses though, there was not a chance of saving the match.

Yeah, I agree, especially his efforts in Australia always went in vain because the rest of the team wasn't good enough, but there's always an extra lustre that a team win adds to a great individual performance. That's why the fourth innings hundred Sachin got against England in Chennai 2008 is a big one for his legacy.

 

[honestbharani]

Personally, for a pretty similar set of reasons as Teja's, I feel Lara's record against Oz is better than anyone's in my time of watching cricket.


Make no mistake, Sachin has been awesome against them too but he never got to play against McWarne at their best nearly as many times as Lara had to.. Obviously not his fault, but it is just one of those things... Except for 99 and 2001 and a couple of tests in 2004, Sachin never had to face off in tests against the best bowling partnership of his generation.. So lame that India played so few tests in that time.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

If only Mc/warne runs are important then Kallis should be the highest rated - he has THE BEST record against Mcgrath/Warne in Australia...better than KP too.Lara's record against Aus is slightly overrated because of the 153* - not to say he has not been absolutely brilliant there but an average of 41 in Australia when you consider many lesser players average 50+ there does not do justice to his immense potential.

 

[The Sean]

If only Mc/warne runs are important then Kallis should be the highest rated - he has THE BEST record against Mcgrath/Warne in Australia...better than KP too.

That stat surprises me - not that I disbelieve it, I suppose it's just that I don't recall Kallis playing any particularly big or memorable knocks. I guess though, in inimitable JHK style, he has just efficiently and consistently accumulated runs while others have been up and down.

 

[honestbharani]

gotta note IN Australia there, Sean.