Which cricketer has the most complete record?

[vcs]

Also, I don't see the point of breaking down home records by opposition. McGrath has a great overall average and S/R in Australia.. that is good enough for me.

 

[Ikki]

If my Aunt had etc. etc.

BTW, that batsman has also made 3 fantastic centuries in the place where he has the "poor" 39+ average, much more than anything Ponting has ever done in India. And he had to face the bowlers who had the stick on him to do it. His average is not great, but there are no question marks about his intrinsic ability to play in S. Africa or against S. African bowlers, atleast in my mind.

It's amazing how sensitive some Indians are that Ponting can't be mentioned once without Sachin being brought into it, but I'll bite.

There is no "if my aunt" scenario here. Sachin was averaging easily in the 30s against both Pakistan and S.Africa until Waqar, Wasim, Pollock and Donald retired. He scored runs against the bowlers that replaced them to lift that average higher. How does that speak for completeness? He completed his record once the bowlers who had the better of him retired? Fantastic. Away from home, Sachin averages above 50+ in only 3 places - didn't count Bangladesh because they're minnows. Compare with Ponting; averages 50+ everywhere bar England (44) and India (20) - didn't count Zimbabwe because of 1 inning/and if it had been more, because of minnows.

And, it's ironic that you mention intrinsic ability, for Ponting clearly has the ability to smash Indian bowlers (exemplified by the shellacking he gave them in Australia) and the fact that he's been successful against every other spinner everywhere else.

 

[Ikki]

Ponting also averages 34 against BD at home, away avg. of 31 Vs. Zimbabwe and 21 Vs. India.

How is his record more complete than Mcgrath's ?

Ponting only played 2 innings against Bangladesh at home and 1 inning against Zimbabwe away. Stop being intellectually dishonest.

Also, I don't see the point of breaking down home records by opposition. McGrath has a great overall average and S/R in Australia.. that is good enough for me.

I believe the exercise is to look at completeness. McGrath could average 10 and strike at 20 at home; average 60 and strike at 60 away and have an overall average of 22 and strike-rate of 52. But that's not a complete or consistent record, really.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

P.S. that batsman you refer to would still have a poor record home and away against that country had the bowlers that had the stick on him not retired - you could count Pakistan in on that too.

The batsman that you refer to should consider himself lucky that he didn't face Mcgrath and Warne against who he definitely would have struggled consdiering his travails against spinners.He should also be thankful that Ambrose and Walsh retired so he could beat up ont he mighty Collins,Dillion,King,Taylor or whichever no name was bowling for WI.

P.S Do you think he could have improved his incredibly complete record of 2 ducks in the only test he faced W-W together

 

[Sanz]

it's amazing how sensitive some indians are that ponting can't be mentioned once without sachin being brought into it, but i'll bite..

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Ponting only played 2 innings against Bangladesh at home and 1 inning against Zimbabwe away. Stop being intellectually dishonest.



.

He only played one test in Pakistan, discount that too.

 

[Ikki]

The batsman that you refer to should consider himself lucky that he didn't face Mcgrath and Warne against who he definitely would have struggled consdiering his travails against spinners.He should also be thankful that Ambrose and Walsh retired so he could beat up ont he mighty Collins,Dillion,King,Taylor or whichever no name was bowling for WI.

P.S Do you think he could have improved his incredibly complete record of 2 ducks in the only test he faced W-W together

Irrelevant. I didn't claim Tendulkar did poorly against Ambrose or Walsh that he improved his average later. I specifically mentioned the bowlers from the two teams he clearly had problems with.

P.S. Ponting had 3 ducks (in a row), and yes, he improved his.

He only played one test in Pakistan, discount that too.

He played them in UAE under even more difficulty and Sri Lanka. 4 away from home tests against Pakistan. Try harder.

 

[Sanz]

Ponting only played 2 innings against Bangladesh at home and 1 inning against Zimbabwe away. Stop being intellectually dishonest.

Only person who is being intellectually dishonest is you and you have always been on this matter because it(lack of no. of innings) has never stopped you from claiming Ponting's perfect record in Pakistan, has it ? Have you not included Ponting's record in Pakistan in the past ?

You are the one who makes up excuses and stories when the stats do not go your way.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Irrelevant. I didn't claim Tendulkar did poorly against Ambrose or Walsh that he improved his average later. I specifically mentioned the bowlers from the two teams he had clearly had problems with.

P.S. Ponting had 3 ducks (in a row), and yes, he improved his.



He played them in Sharjah under even more difficulty. Try harder.

lol you bringing in bowling attacks is not? He never faced them together after that test and in case you don't know,one test has only 2 innings. Even Ponting cannot have scored 3 ducks in only 2 innings

Coming back to the topic Ponting averages 31 in Zim and 20 in India - sorry Mcgrath's record is much more complete. Only place he averages more than 30 is Pakistan and that too only marginally. Almost everywhere else he is in the early-mid 20s.

 

[Ikki]

Only person who is being intellectually dishonest is you and you have always been on this matter because it(lack of no. of innings) has never stopped you from claiming Ponting's perfect record in Pakistan, has it ? Have you not included Ponting's record in Pakistan in the past ?

You are the one who makes up excuses and stories when the stats do not go your way.

Ponting played Pakistan on neutral ground, as well as in Pakistan, as well as at home. The lowest he has ever averaged across a series against them is 49.25. He scored 199 runs in Sharjah where batsmen had troubled getting into the double digits.

Stop being intellectually dishonest, just to score points.

 

[Sanz]

The thread was going well until....I am outta here. Good Luck thread.

 

[vcs]

It's amazing how sensitive some Indians are that Ponting can't be mentioned once without Sachin being brought into it, but I'll bite.

Oh, I'm not sensitive believe me. I didn't bring Tendulkar into this.

There is no "if my aunt" scenario here. Sachin was averaging easily in the 30s against both Pakistan and S.Africa until Waqar, Wasim, Pollock and Donald retired. He scored runs against the bowlers that replaced them to lift that average higher. How does that speak for completeness? He completed his record once the bowlers who had the better of him retired? Fantastic. Away from home, Sachin averages above 50+ in only 3 places. Compare with Ponting; averages 50+ everywhere bar England (44) and India (20).

How did you work that out? One of Pollock/Donald has played every time India toured SA. He hardly had much opportunity to play Wasim/Waqar, played them as a 16 year old and then 3 Tests in '99. Averages be damned, he probably played his best ever Test innings against a Pakistan attack at its strongest, with a bad back.

And, it's ironic that you mention intrinsic ability, for Ponting clearly has the ability to smash Indian bowlers (exemplified by the shellacking he gave them in Australia) and the fact that he's been successful against every other spinner everywhere else.

Ponting's ability to shellack Indian spinners in Australia does not translate to doing it in India. The best argument you could make is his record against Murali in SL, which is very good. But it still isn't the same thing.

For me, it isn't even about whether Ponting averages 25 or 30 in India on paper, it's the lack of "defining innings" in India for a batsman of his caliber. Gilchrist's average in India doesn't look great either but he has played the big innings for Australia when called upon.

 

[vcs]

Ponting only played 2 innings against Bangladesh at home and 1 inning against Zimbabwe away. Stop being intellectually dishonest.



I believe the exercise is to look at completeness. McGrath could average 10 and strike at 20 at home; average 60 and strike at 60 away and have an overall average of 22 and strike-rate of 52. But that's not a complete or consistent record, really.

But that is not the case, is it? McGrath clearly has an awesome record, home or away. No opposition/venue has consistently got the better of him. If his home record against certain opposition isn't great, you'd expect him to fix it if he played them often enough, because his overall record is consistently good across the board.

 

[Ikki]

If simply having 1 bad record spoils the lot; then would people argue that Alan Davidson is better than McGrath? Genuine question.

 

[JBH001]

@ thread.

 

[Spark]

@ thread.

This one has certainly gone to good places

 

[Burgey]

If simply having 1 bad record spoils the lot; then would people argue that Alan Davidson is better than McGrath? Genuine question.

You could mount an argument that Davo is better than just about anyone tbh.

It's not so much he's under-rated as under the radar though.

He would certainly be in an argument as best left armer ever, but I'm too big a Wasim fan to go there. I, dishonestly perhaps, have them as equals as bowlers.

Davo was a mighty, mighty cricketer. He's also a top bloke fwiw.

 

[Ikki]

I've deleted two of my posts which I know will take the thread where even I don't want it. I've been annoyed enough in the past couple weeks by threads going to crap that I am gonna stop myself from helping that trend. I kept my question as I am interested then what people deem as complete.

 

[bagapath]

I was actually talking about allan border. he averaged 38 in SA. but had a great record everywhere. may be he is good enough to be called the batsman with the most "complete" record. because I made a typo and put in 39 instead of 38 this has turned into a ricky vs sachin debate. it is all my fault.

anyway, no bowler can be called "complete" if he averaged above 35 in any of the leading test nations. and no batsman should be called complete if averaged under 35 in any of the non-minnow nations. sounds fair?

 

[Ikki]

I was actually talking about allan border. he averaged 38 in SA. but had a great record everywhere. may be he is good enough to be called the batsman with the most "complete" record. because I made a typo and put in 39 instead of 38 this has turned into a ricky vs sachin debate. it is all my fault.

anyway, no bowler can be called "complete" if he averaged above 35 in any of the leading test nations. and no batsman should be called complete if averaged under 35 in any of the non-minnow nations. sounds fair?

I think it's myopic. Essentially you award people for not going below a certain level yet don't take into account whether or how much higher they get than that in other instances.

What is better to you?

Batsman A: Home, Away

Country 1: 60, 60
Country 2: 60, 60
Country 3: 60, 60
Country 4: 33, 60

Batsman B:

Country 1: 45, 40
Country 2: 45, 46
Country 3: 45, 45
Country 4: 40, 40

A or B?

At the top of my head it rules out: Viv averages 19 against NZ IIRC (but only in 3 matches); Sobers averages 24 against NZ in 12 matches; and Lara averages 34.55 against India in 17 matches.

And those are overall stats against a country. If you simply mean IN a certain country then the names really start rolling in.