Which cricketer has the most complete record?

[abmk]

Bit rough to be taking out 2002-6 where Ponting had possibly the finest run of batsmanship I have ever seen in my life

That's not very good logic at all.

ponting was phenomenal in those years. But outside of those, he hasn't been that good. Isn't consistency over the years throughout the career a part of the batsman having a complete record at all ?

Quite a few players have better performances, outside of say their best 5 years ... When someone suggests, Ponting has the most complete record ( which he isn't anywhere close to IMO ) , its a point against him.

Statistically, did he have the best run of 5 years bar bradman ? yes ..Most complete record ? Just no

 

[Bun]

Ponting undoubtedly a fan of Tendulkar.

Ikki concedes again, on a day of dramatic disclosures.

 

[shankar]

You're right, Ponting averaged 29 not 19 (I think that's a typo). Averages 73 though overall in matches without Harbhajan. :/

I was referring to the 4 matches before 2001 before Harbhajan became a challenge where he averaged 19.

It's not as if spin-conducive pitches hindered him as his record away from home against Pakistan and Sri Lanka show he was comfortable.

It doesn't work that way though. Just because a batsman has success aganst McGrath, it doesn't mean he necessarily has to succede against Donald. Different attacks offer different challenges.

 

[Ikki]

It doesn't work that way though. Just because a batsman has success aganst McGrath, it doesn't mean he necessarily has to succede against Donald. Different attacks offer different challenges.

What? We're talking about basically the same teams/attacks. The difference between them was playing in Australia and playing in India. Your analogy is invalid.

For example, In 99/00 he averaged 125 in 5 innings against India in Australia and in 2001 he averaged 3 (yes three) in India against very similar attacks.

 

[shankar]

What? We're talking about basically the same teams/attacks. The difference between them was playing in Australia and playing in India. Your analogy is invalid.

You've misunderstood. You said that since Punter did well in S.Lanka, he should have done well in India. My post was in response to that.

 

[Ikki]

You've misunderstood. You said that since Punter did well in S.Lanka, he should have done well in India. My post was in response to that.

Oh apologies, I misunderstood your reply. My point was that there doesn't seem to be a very strong reason as to why Ponting has failed in India yet succeeded so massively in Australia against the same team.

I expanded and thought of reasons but it really isn't a problem with spin - since he has done so well against other spinners - and it really isn't a deficiency in subcontinental conditions really, either. Your analogy would be more apt if he, say, averaged 10 against Donald at home and 70 away.

That brings me back to my original point where I say it is a very weird record he has there. How can he have such contrasting success where a weakness is not glaring enough to explain it? You said it wasn't weird and said India were very good at home and poor away and I replied saying not even that explains it either as India weren't 3 times worse for Ponting's record to adjust itself relatively.

 

[shankar]

Oh apologies, I misunderstood your reply. My point was that there doesn't seem to be a very strong reason as to why Ponting has failed in India yet succeeded so massively in Australia against the same team.

I expanded and thought of reasons but it really isn't a problem with spin - since he has done so well against other spinners - and it really isn't a deficiency in subcontinental conditions really, either. Your analogy would be more apt if he, say, averaged 10 against Donald at home and 70 away.

That brings me back to my original point where I say it is a very weird record he has there. How can he have such contrasting success where a weakness is not glaring enough to explain it? You said it wasn't weird and said India were very good at home and poor away and I replied saying not even that explains it either as India weren't 3 times worse for Ponting's record to adjust itself relatively.

That's just a misunderstanding of what averages are. Just because India has a certain bowling average at home and away, it doesn't mean every batsman will average in proportion to those averages. Some will do terribly vs India at home compared to away, some slightly worse compared to away. Some will actually be better vs India in India than away. The overall average is a mean of all these batsmen's performances. So there is no mystery associated with batsmen falling into the first category.

 

[Ikki]

Although I understand what you are saying I do not subscribe to conclusion. Across so many tests, years, and with respect to the difference in average there is surely a reason why one may be in one group (average slightly higher in one place than another) and why they may be in another (do terrible in one place and tremendously in another). It's not really a case of equal chance or a coin flip. There's usually a reason why one is in one group and not the other. More importantly, those with the huge differences are prime candidates for their being a reason.

With the above logic one can say: X batsman scored lots against Donald + Pollock and batsman Y did not; yet it says nothing about them as batsman as batsmen will either do well or not do well against attacks and do differently against others. Essentially, it makes no qualitative statement about them at all. It's akin to saying that the difference between a batsman that averages 50 and one that averages 30 is not that one is better than the other; but merely that some batsmen score a lot and some don't, seemingly at random

You yourself proposed that India were better at home than away and sought to explain it so you've already tried to establish it on a qualitative basis.

 

[Maximus0723]

Rather then ranking them one by one, I like the idea of tier.
When it comes to issue of "complete record" I just put likes of G Chappell, Ponting and Tendulkar in same tier.

 

[Ikki]

good suggestion, really. It's splitting hairs most of the time anyway.

 

[Maximus0723]

good suggestion, really. It's splitting hairs most of the time anyway.

Yup. Thank you.

 

[abmk]

What?

For example, In 99/00 he averaged 125 in 5 innings against India in Australia and in 2001 he averaged 3 (yes three) in India against very similar attacks.

he didn't face harbhajan in the 99 series

 

[0RI0N]

Glenn - Pakistan away
GS Chappell - England away ave 40, nitpicking though.
Hadlee - Pakistan away
Marshall - NZ away

From those 4 I'd go with Glenn.
124 tests, played vs 9 test nations,worst average vs SA 27.33.
Also Aus vs SA in Aus ave 31.
Outstanding record
Worst away ave vs Pakistan 31

 

[G.I.Joe]

AWTA. Glenn McGrath is so so underrated in comparison to the other great bowlers.

 

[0RI0N]

AWTA. Glenn McGrath is so so underrated in comparison to the other great bowlers.

Lots of people don't rate him because he is not express pace.

So they consider him boring - he doesn't have pace so he must be a line and length merchant they argue.
At the end of the day he gets the job done like Kallis,like Dravid.
He wins matches.

 

[Furball]

Oh apologies, I misunderstood your reply. My point was that there doesn't seem to be a very strong reason as to why Ponting has failed in India yet succeeded so massively in Australia against the same team.

Familiarity with home conditions, as well as India's bowling attack largely being unsuited for bowling in Australia is one reason.

As for his record in India, it's not that hard to explain. Without checking statsguru, I'm guessing Ponting's played maybe 12, 13 Tests in India? When for 3 of those Tests you've batted worse than Chris Martin, it's not suprising that his record is so poor. Missing all of the 2004 series with the exception of the Mumbai Test doesn't help his record either. I'm not a fan of cherry picking stats to make a player look as good as possible, but if you removed those 4 Tests from his record then he'd look decent in India without being outstanding, probably averaging between 35-40 (like I said, I cbf checking this, this is just a guess). This would indicate that Ponting by and large hasn't struggled in India as much as his record suggests. However, when such a significant minority of your performances in a country have been as bad as Ponting's 4 poor Tests in India, and without the presence of an epic series to counter balance those poor Tests, his record is going to look, perhaps unfairly, poor.

See also: Ian Bell's Ashes record, and Alistair Cook's Ashes record. Cook's record prior to the just concluded series was dreadful. Now, he has a very healthy Ashes average due to one epic series.

 

[MrIncredible]

Glenn - Pakistan away
GS Chappell - England away ave 40, nitpicking though.
Hadlee - Pakistan away
Marshall - NZ away
From those 4 I'd go with Glenn.
124 tests, played vs 9 test nations,worst average vs SA 27.33.
Also Aus vs SA in Aus ave 31.
Outstanding record
Worst away ave vs Pakistan 31

And how r u not nitpicking when it comes to Marshall? He only averaged 32 in 3 freaking

tests away to NZ when he was injured halfway thru the series. Apart from that one

abberration, he averages sub 25 home and and away vs everyone (never played a minnow)

and overall his highest average vs ne team was 22 vs OZ. IMO easily the most complete

record bar none.

 

[Furball]

AWTA. Glenn McGrath is so so underrated in comparison to the other great bowlers.

It's because in comparison to the other great pacers who were contemporaries of McGrath, he doesn't have any particularly obvious weapons. Donald could swing it at pace, Wasim seemed to have complete mastery of the ball and could get it to swing and seam whereever he wanted it to go and Waqar had massive inswinging yorkers bowled at a fierce pace. Ambrose was pretty sharp as well. McGrath had none of those attributes, he just simply got great players out again and again and again and again, without the method or weakness he exploited being particularly obvious.

 

[bagapath]

guys... marshall averaged under 25 against all teams he faced. his away record in nz is misleading because it is only in the last innings when he conceded 70+ runs without a wicket his average went above 26, IIRC. it is simply a case of him playing too little in kiwi land to be properly judged. OTOH, mcgrath averages above 28 in more than two places i think. both champions really. but marshall's record is more complete if u ask me.

 

[Furball]

guys... marshall averaged under 25 against all teams he faced. his away record in nz is misleading because it is only in the last innings when he conceded 70+ runs without a wicket his average went above 26, IIRC. it is simply a case of him playing too little in kiwi land to be properly judged. OTOH, mcgrath averages above 28 in more than two places i think. both champions really. but marshall's record is more complete if u ask me.

Isn't McGrath's record in Pakistan (and possibly Sri Lanka) over an equally small sample size?