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Thread: Left-arm spinners

  1. #16
    Evil Scotsman
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Edit: Just realised you were talking about left arm spinners in general, not SLAs. My bad. Why there have been no great left arm wrist spinners is a question I'd be very interested to know the answer to.
    There haven't been enough great wrist spinners for this to be a statistical oddity.

  2. #17
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    There haven't been enough great wrist spinners for this to be a statistical oddity.
    I'd argue there's possibly been as many great wrist spinners as finger spinners, especially if you include Murali in the former camp. The difference is that none of the great unorthodox bowlers have been lefties.
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  3. #18
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    There haven't been enough great wrist spinners for this to be a statistical oddity.
    There will never be more than a tiny handful of great wristspinners. Wristspin is and always has been incredibly difficult to bowl to a terribly high standard - you can count the number of those who've bowled it to Test standard on two hands at worst, one at best.
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  4. #19
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Was going to make the same point as fred, if in a somewhat less erudite way, however I will say that with the seemingly ever increasing numbers of cack handers in test teams top orders (England having only Cook in our top 7 today seems almost noteworthy) I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw a decent chinaman bowler emerge soon.
    I understand the whole spinning it back into the right handers disadvantage, but it hasn't stopped countless offies having decent Test careers. Obviously there's just a smaller percentage of bowlers who are left armers, and then an even smaller amount that can bowl wrist spin decently, but it's just odd (to me at least) that that aspect of bowling is so under-represented at the upper levels.
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  5. #20
    International Captain King Pietersen's Avatar
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    Yeah, you're probably right Richard.

    Shane Warne
    Muttiah Muralitharan
    Clarrie Grimmett
    Bhagwath Chandrasekhar
    Subhash Gupte
    Bill O'Reilly
    Aubrey Faulkner
    Anil Kumble

    There's 8, and after that you're struggling. Would you consider Abdul Qadir and Richie Benaud in that same league?

  6. #21
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    I understand the whole spinning it back into the right handers disadvantage, but it hasn't stopped countless offies having decent Test careers. Obviously there's just a smaller percentage of bowlers who are left armers, and then an even smaller amount that can bowl wrist spin decently, but it's just odd (to me at least) that that aspect of bowling is so under-represented at the upper levels.
    With the standard "I'm no expert on spin" proviso, I'd guess that with the fact that wrist spin is that bit harder to master than its orth(o)dox cousin, traditionally few lefty bowlers would've thought it worth sacrificing the natural advantage of turning the ball away from the right hander.

  7. #22
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    There will never be more than a tiny handful of great wristspinners. Wristspin is and always has been incredibly difficult to bowl to a terribly high standard - you can count the number of those who've bowled it to Test standard on two hands at worst, one at best.
    Depends how you define Test standard I suppose but I'd say these 11 were high quality bowlers and that several more were decent players at Test level


    Vogler
    Schwarz
    Faulkner
    Mailey
    Grimmett
    O'Reilly
    Wright
    Warne
    Gupte
    Qadir
    Chandrasekhar

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    There will never be more than a tiny handful of great wristspinners. Wristspin is and always has been incredibly difficult to bowl to a terribly high standard - you can count the number of those who've bowled it to Test standard on two hands at worst, one at best.
    Yeah, that was entirely my point.

  9. #24
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Pietersen View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right Richard.

    Shane Warne
    Muttiah Muralitharan
    Clarrie Grimmett
    Bhagwath Chandrasekhar
    Subhash Gupte
    Bill O'Reilly
    Aubrey Faulkner
    Anil Kumble

    There's 8, and after that you're struggling. Would you consider Abdul Qadir and Richie Benaud in that same league?
    Only for a brief time (and with Qadir there's so many variables to throw in that I've never yet attempted a serious analysis), and in the case of Faulkner I'm still to-be-convinced - most rated Vogler as a better pure bowler. The SAfrican wristspin triplet of the 1900s was a fascinating one, and I've long wished more Test cricket had been played so as to give a more apt impression of just how good each of the aforementioned and Schwarz were.

    Also, as for Kumble, and to some extent Chandra, the amount of wrist they actually used was debateable, and for Kumble he was mostly more of a topspinner than sidespinner, for most of his career. Chandra I know relatively little about so I've always tried not to comment too much.

    Personally the only stock-standard wristspinners I'd rate as conclusively Test-class were:
    Grimmett
    O'Reilly
    Gupte
    (Benaud)
    Warne
    Muralitharan

    With, as I say, plenty of questions able to be asked about Schwarz, Vogler and Faulkner and whether they deserve to be added or not.
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  10. #25
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    MacGill, anyone?

  11. #26
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    Depends how you define Test standard I suppose but I'd say these 11 were high quality bowlers and that several more were decent players at Test level


    Vogler
    Schwarz
    Faulkner
    Mailey
    Grimmett
    O'Reilly
    Wright
    Warne
    Gupte
    Qadir
    Chandrasekhar
    Would disagree in terms of Mailey and Wright - both were profligate in the extreme from the wristspin "classic" school. Comparable to Stuart MacGill, who was also the a wristspin classic - he bowled sensationally occasionally and dreadfully often.

    As for Abdul Qadir, well, yes, he was Test-class... at home, in the middle of his career. Rarely did much outside Pakistan and had some fairly poor times at the start and end of his career, and not just in the usual very-short-period mould either. I've a fair bit to do before I start assessing him properly, but I've always had a good deal of question-marks over exactly how good he was myself.
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  12. #27
    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    He was a not-terribly-good spinner, from all I've heard; only started to become a bowler who was taken seriously when he started bowling seam-up.

    Either way, the question of "have there ever been any great left-arm spinners apart from Vettori?" is one of the more odd ones I've heard posed recently. There have been many left-arm fingerspinners who've enjoyed miles more success than Vettori has. The days of fingerspinners, left- or right-arm, being able to dominate all over the globe are gone, however, and went a long time ago. It is no longer possible for a fingerspinner to have sustained success in England or New Zealand, it hasn't been in Australia or South Africa for a very long time indeed, it virtually never was in Pakistan (except briefly in the days of Iqbal Qasim and Tauseef Ahmed then later Saqlain Mushtaq), and at the present time even the original spin-haven of India produces less spin-friendly Test tracks than used to be the case. Only Sri Lanka really remains the proper spin-haven it should be.

    All of the great English fingerspinners - most of whom were left-armers (Peate, Peel, Rhodes, White, Verity, Wardle, Lock, Underwood) - date from the days when wickets in this country were uncovered. In the days since wickets in England have been covered, only subcontinental fingerspinners (Bedi, Prasanna, Kumble, Harbhajan Singh, the aforementioned Iqbal and Saqlain) have ever enjoyed much sustained succes. There hasn't been a genuinely successful Australian fingerspinner for many decades, and there's only ever been one from South Africa (Tayfield) and one from West Indies (Gibbs), both of whom are also a long time ago now.

    In modern times the only bowlers who've enjoyed widespread success Worldwide have been wristspinners - Muttiah Muralitharan and Shane Warne. And if anyone thinks there's likely to be another one of those two any time soon they're asking rather a lot.
    I disagree. The second best spin bowler in NZ (that never gets a god damn game for the national side) is this guy Bruce Martin | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

    He's a left arm spinner, and though he's had a bad trot recently, he is head and shoulders ahead of Patel and McCullum.

    The most promising young spinner is also slow left arm-Nick Beard.
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  13. #28
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    I think we're being a little too exclusive in our definitions of "test class" here; to my way of thinking a guy like Benaud with very nearly 250 test scalps at a tick over 27 comfortably fits that definition. Even if he was Chris Martinesque with the bat he'd be in any current test line up: fact.

    You could argue he perhaps isn't an all-time great (although his batting and captaincy must lift him bloody close to it), but he's test class, surely?

  14. #29
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    I think we're being a little too exclusive in our definitions of "test class" here; to my way of thinking a guy like Benaud with very nearly 250 test scalps at a tick over 27 comfortably fits that definition. Even if he was Chris Martinesque with the bat he'd be in any current test line up: fact.

    You could argue he perhaps isn't an all-time great (although his batting and captaincy must lift him bloody close to it), but he's test class, surely?
    Yeah, agree. Reckon you could make a case for there being 15 or so good Test standard right arm wrist spinners, for which there should surely be at least one decent left handed wristie, yet AFAIK there isn't.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    I disagree. The second best spin bowler in NZ (that never gets a god damn game for the national side) is this guy Bruce Martin | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

    He's a left arm spinner, and though he's had a bad trot recently, he is head and shoulders ahead of Patel and McCullum.

    The most promising young spinner is also slow left arm-Nick Beard.
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