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Thread: Career Averages that dont do justice

  1. #136
    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    I just think we sometimes risk slicing these things a bit too finely, and attaching these great big unstickable labels to players which unfairly stigmatise them. Which is a criticism that can be levelled at a lot of what's written on CW tbf.

    Ultimately, Dean Jones averaged 46 and that was a pretty fair reflection of his high level of ability. Whether he got those in "live" series against England, or "dead" series against the West Indies (and I challenge you to say that the former is more impressive than the latter) doesn't really detract from that for me. Not least because, as I say and as I think you agree, this is likely just to be a statistical anomaly of the sort that can happen when you're dealing with a career of middling length like his.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    I just think we sometimes risk slicing these things a bit too finely, and attaching these great big unstickable labels to players which unfairly stigmatise them. Which is a criticism that can be levelled at a lot of what's written on CW tbf.

    Ultimately, Dean Jones averaged 46 and that was a pretty fair reflection of his high level of ability. Whether he got those in "live" series against England, or "dead" series against the West Indies (and I challenge you to say that the former is more impressive than the latter) doesn't really detract from that for me. Not least because, as I say and as I think you agree, this is likely just to be a statistical anomaly of the sort that can happen when you're dealing with a career of middling length like his.
    Yeah agreed, was a top-notch Test cricketer who, I think, was about to really kick-on.

  3. #138
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    You seem rather hostile to someone who has just said he was a massive fan of Deanos but was simply stating the fact that he scored a lot of runs in dead rubbers. At no point did I "ignorantly" write that double ton or any of his other innings' off as meaningless but what I did was say that a lot of his big scores - that 216 included - came when the series was already decided. That's not a personal attack on him or you, it's simply what happened.

    For what it's worth, I watched Jones' knock live on TV and agree with you that it was an outstanding attacking innings against a superb bowling attack by a player who was reaching his peak as a Test cricketer. That it helped shape and inspire Australian batsmanship in the ensuing years is a matter of conjecture. That it came in a dead rubber is not.
    Interestingly, I've read Steve Waugh and Allan Border talk about the end of that series being very important in terms of the Australian side believing that they could mix it with the best, even though they were dead rubbers. And that the efforts in the ODIs that summer further contributed to that mindset, in which (from memory) Waugh and Jones played a big part in.
    Last edited by vic_orthdox; 23-03-2010 at 09:47 PM.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Yeah agreed, was a top-notch Test cricketer who, I think, was about to really kick-on.
    Yeah, if it wasn't for that clown Bob Simpson. Happy birthday Dean Jones.


  5. #140
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Yeah agreed, was a top-notch Test cricketer who, I think, was about to really kick-on.
    Would tend to agree with this - it did seem, as you said in an earlier post, that he was putting his dead rubber-ness behind him and I would have loved to have seen him really take the next step. Obviously the selectors thought he'd had enough chances by then (I think he was 31/32 at the time) but I don't think there's a cricket fan in Australia outside of Damien Martyn's own family who actually wanted to see Deano dropped.

    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    Interestingly, I've read Steve Waugh and Allan Border talk about the end of that series being very important in terms of the Australian side believing that they could mix it with the best, even though they were dead rubbers. And that the efforts in the ODIs that summer further contributed to that mindset, in which (from memory) Waugh and Jones played a big part in.
    At ODI level I have no qualifications whatsoever about Jones' greatness - he remains to this day IMO one of the very best limited overs batsman of all time.
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  6. #141
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    He was the man who made ODI batting what it is today. Of course, if he hadn't then someone else would have, but that applies to Newton and any other groundbreaker you care to name - Jones deserves to be recognised as the first to take that step.
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  7. #142
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    I just think we sometimes risk slicing these things a bit too finely, and attaching these great big unstickable labels to players which unfairly stigmatise them. Which is a criticism that can be levelled at a lot of what's written on CW tbf.

    Ultimately, Dean Jones averaged 46 and that was a pretty fair reflection of his high level of ability. Whether he got those in "live" series against England, or "dead" series against the West Indies (and I challenge you to say that the former is more impressive than the latter) doesn't really detract from that for me. Not least because, as I say and as I think you agree, this is likely just to be a statistical anomaly of the sort that can happen when you're dealing with a career of middling length like his.
    It may be a fair reflection of his high level of ability, but it isn't a fair reflection of how much contribution he made to the success (or otherwise) of Team Australia. Ultimately the only thing Jones can really be credited with is kickstarting the revival by being a run-machine as it was chugging into motion, in 1989 and 1989/90.

    You can claim all you want that his last innings in 1988/89 was vital to Australia's players' gaining of belief - and maybe it was, but there's no way you can be certain about that. It could very easily have happened anyway.

    You can be as certain as you can that the Moon orbits the Earth that Jones made very little contribution to Australia's Test match success outside 1989 and 1989/90.
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  8. #143
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    Steve Waugh's average of 32.90 in ODI's doesn't do him justice, Should be around the 40 mark
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  9. #144
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Not really. Waugh Snr.'s style was always going to make him a decent rather than excellent ODI batsman.

    That's one area where no-one can possibly argue that Mark was the superior.
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  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Not really. Waugh Snr.'s style was always going to make him a decent rather than excellent ODI batsman.

    That's one area where no-one can possibly argue that Mark was the superior.
    I would say it's quite easy to argue that Mark was the superior........

  11. #146
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    By "argue" I mean "argue against".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    I would say it's quite easy to argue that Mark was the superior........
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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    By "argue" I mean "argue against".
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  14. #149
    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    You can be as certain as you can that the Moon orbits the Earth that Jones made very little contribution to Australia's Test match success outside 1989 and 1989/90.
    The Moon doesn't orbit the Earth. They both orbit around a common centre of gravity.

  15. #150
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    ^As I was saying - nothing can be said unequivocally.
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