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Thread: Waqar Younis

  1. #121
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    And ftr, I can at least claim to have watched Wasim, at least from 1991/1992 onwards. Pakistan actually played NZ A LOT through the mid-1990s, and Wasim and Waqar had it all over us, so it's not like I never saw him bowl, or bowl well.

    I always remember Waqar being my favourite, and the more feared, at the time. Waqar was scary and Wasim was sort of the exotic left-handed complement with the short run.

    Biggest thing for me is I truly don't believe he was as quick as people make out. He never was when I watched him anyway (had this whole discussion here before tbh). Distinctly recall him being a 130s operator and maybe he was 140s, but I think he was deceptive rather than true express.

  2. #122
    International Coach Xuhaib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    And ftr, I can at least claim to have watched Wasim, at least from 1991/1992 onwards. Pakistan actually played NZ A LOT through the mid-1990s, and Wasim and Waqar had it all over us, so it's not like I never saw him bowl, or bowl well.

    I always remember Waqar being my favourite, and the more feared, at the time. Waqar was scary and Wasim was sort of the exotic left-handed complement with the short run.

    Biggest thing for me is I truly don't believe he was as quick as people make out. He never was when I watched him anyway (had this whole discussion here before tbh). Distinctly recall him being a 130s operator and maybe he was 140s, but I think he was deceptive rather than true express.
    Sounds about right.Infact Wasim few weeks back said that even at this age Amir bowls quicker then he ever bowled,Always have nice words for the young quickie.

  3. #123
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    At the risk of being shouted down for stats-obsession, Wasim's test record appears to me to be a rung below the other contenders. What's also interesting is that he is referred to as such an utterly devastating wicket-taking bowler, yet compared to other great or supposedly great quicks has a fairly middling strike-rate and probably the lowest wickets-per-match.

    I also don't see, prima facie, what would make Wasim so clearly superior to a McGrath or a Pollock (so so underrated) as an ODI bowler.
    It depends what you look at. Wasim is renown for being 'destructive' and the mere look at SR, for example, is not enough to prove either way.

    McGrath, for example, has an SR of 51.9 and Wasim 54.6. Yet if you look at their 4fers, 5fers and 10fers with respect to the amount of test matches they played; Wasim is very strong.

    Code:
                    4fer         5fer        10fer    Matches
    McGrath:       28 (23%)     29 (23%)     3 (2%)    124
    Wasim:         20 (19%)     25 (24%)     5 (5%)    104
    I guess it may rest on what people are referring to exactly when they give superlatives. If you mean consistently 'destructive' I guess McGrath is your man. If you mean 'destructive' in the ability to quickly tear a line-up, Wasim is slightly ahead IMO.
    Last edited by Ikki; 24-03-2010 at 02:40 AM.
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  4. #124
    International Coach Xuhaib's Avatar
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    In regards to Wasim I thing his test match performances suffered once he became diabatic.He did not become a lesser bowler but many a times after a good first spell he would look out of steam for the rest of the innings.But when he was lethal he looked as good as he looked in his hay days.


  5. #125
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    The end of Wasim's career hurt him statistically as well - his last 8 Tests produced just 10 wickets at an average of 55.8 and a S/R of 136.6. TBF he's hardly the only bowler to have suffered a late-career decline, but his figures after 96 Tests rather than 104 are considerably better.

    For all that, he's not statistically in the Marshall/McGrath class and Thierry is right that he's a notch or two below in that respect - his reputation, as others have noted, is based as much on what he was capable of doing when he was "on" as what he did match after match over a whole career.
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  6. #126
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    And ftr, I can at least claim to have watched Wasim, at least from 1991/1992 onwards. Pakistan actually played NZ A LOT through the mid-1990s, and Wasim and Waqar had it all over us, so it's not like I never saw him bowl, or bowl well.

    I always remember Waqar being my favourite, and the more feared, at the time. Waqar was scary and Wasim was sort of the exotic left-handed complement with the short run.

    Biggest thing for me is I truly don't believe he was as quick as people make out. He never was when I watched him anyway (had this whole discussion here before tbh). Distinctly recall him being a 130s operator and maybe he was 140s, but I think he was deceptive rather than true express.
    I think he was clocked at 94mph around 1995. Would have pushed to upper 90s in his pomp.
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  7. #127
    State Vice-Captain GuyFromLancs's Avatar
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    Odd because in any highlights package and on raw ability to do things with the ball you would say that Wasim was-

    - Faster than McGrath
    - Swung it more
    - Had greater variety
    - A more potent bouncer

    Yet there is no doubt in my mind that McGrath was the better bowler. The best seamer I have ever seen in fact. Look at his average in the 00s. Strike rate, percentage of top order wickets, the wood he held over seemingly all the top batsman etc etc.
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  8. #128
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    my top 10 fast bowlers of the last 30 years

    Tests

    Marshall
    McGrath
    Hadlee
    Imran
    Lillee
    Ambrose
    Donald
    Akram
    Holding
    Waqar
    My list wouldn't be massively different to that, though with the last 30 years - as vic pointed out - now being 1980-onwards, I couldn't have Lillee so high as his decline began in 1982 and he retired at the start of '84.

  9. #129
    International Vice-Captain Faisal1985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    You don't seem to understand very well - most every Waqar delivery was aimed at the stumps except when he chucked the odd short one in, but he missed that aim with great regularity, as well as hitting it on plenty of occasions too (which when you bowl several thousand deliveries you will do). Other bowlers hit their aim - whatever that aim might have been - with far more regularity than Waqar.

    As I say - there is no such thing as "is accurate" \ "is not accurate" - it's a question of how accurate. No-one's saying Waqar was a hopeless waste of space who couldn't ever hit a barn door in 50 attempts, merely that compared to plenty of bowlers, his accuracy was inferior. That didn't stop him being a damn decent ODI bowler, but it did make him notably inferior to a good few others.
    I don't think you know how to express your complicated opinion very well, may be because the opinion itself is so complex that it bears no significance in the end.

    So now the whole debate is about how many times a bowler aimed for a certain area on the pitch and how many times the bowler actually got it right where he wanted it. How do you know unless you are a mind reader..
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  10. #130
    Hall of Fame Member Sanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xuhaib View Post
    In regards to Wasim I thing his test match performances suffered once he became diabatic.He did not become a lesser bowler but many a times after a good first spell he would look out of steam for the rest of the innings.But when he was lethal he looked as good as he looked in his hay days.
    I watched Akram bowl in mid 80s and he was an explosive fast bowler, who could just bowl raw pace , no not as fast as Akhtar, Lee, but he could easily clock 140+ consistently if he wanted/needed to. With his skills Akram didn't really need pace. He could just bowl after taking 2 steps and be as effective.

  11. #131
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    I think he was clocked at 94mph around 1995. Would have pushed to upper 90s in his pomp.
    Yeah for sure and was cut down even by then after his back injury in '92. Before then, was lightning. I do admit to being a Waqar fanboy, though.

  12. #132
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfdu_ben91 View Post
    No, it's just what you think is right. Doesn't mean it is, Dickadoo.
    My relativist epistemology means nothing is "right", merely consensus of opinion. Therefore, if I say something, it's because I believe it's right, simple as.

    Oh, and cut the "Dickadoo"s out.
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  13. #133
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    There's also the possibility that those stats show that by not taking wickets, it is more likely that runs are to be scored. It can go both ways.
    Having watched many of the games in question, I can fairly confidently say that it was a case of what got Lee economy also got him wickets, not one causing the other.
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  14. #134
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teja. View Post
    Richard, your posts seem to give the impression that bowling at the stumps consistently over a 266-match ODI career is absolute childplay.
    Umm... no. It isn't, and they don't. However, aiming at the stumps consistently is childsplay.
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  15. #135
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teja. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Xuhaib View Post
    My take on Waqar has always been the same.

    90-94 Best fast bowler ever.

    95-98 World class.

    99-03 Barely test class.
    Overall, all time great?
    For me, there is no "overall" with Waqar. His career, as noted, was split into markedly contrasting phases. Players like that I don't categorise as one thing.
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