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Thread: Further notice the England born players are not coming through.

  1. #1
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Further notice the England born players are not coming through.

    Im not upset or disappointed but I was suprised by how few English players took part in the 2009 University game.

    Varsity Match: Cambridge University v Oxford University at Cambridge, Jul 7-10, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

    The Oxford vs Cambridge game still has FC satus but according to cricinfo only 2 players for Oxford (with 3 others without details) were born in England.
    Last edited by Goughy; 18-03-2010 at 02:23 PM.
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  2. #2
    International Vice-Captain Jungle Jumbo's Avatar
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    This is Varsity sport for you though. The Blues sides are full of foreigners either doing (relatively) comfortable undergrad courses as mature students or post-grads who are there to play sport rather than do work.

    However it's not as bad for cricket as it is for the union Varsity match or the Boat Race because they're the bigger events and so there is both a greater allure for the players involved (i.e. Dan Vickerman is the Cambridge rugby captain) and a greater pressure for the Uni to produce results.

    Given that cricket is a minor sport in comparison to rugby and rowing, the players are less likely to be there for the sport (although many continue after studies for a year or post-grad for enjoyment) and more because they stood up to the academic criteria to begin with. This is increasingly the case with the fairer admissions system that makes it more difficult to let someone in based on the fact that they can score hundreds at will.

    The standard in Varsity cricket matches really isn't that high - it's probably the lowest standard first-class cricket played in the world, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe included. I've seen the Cambridge Uni captain from a couple of years back play - he lives near me - and he got dropped from a Premier League first XI last summer.

    The better players are those representing the UCCE (i.e. not just drawn from the Colleges, but from Oxford Brookes/Anglia Ruskin) who can effectively get in on a sports scholarship.

    EDIT: Just offering other suggestions... international students don't have be strictly admitted through the same criteria as UK students, so there would be more leeway to take someone in who happens to be good at sport.

    EDIT 2: Quick check of Uni contacts search seems to suggest that most of the side with names rare enough for me not to have to trawl through hundreds of entries suggests that most of the (Cambridge) players are still undergrads or are no longer at the Uni, which suggests they were probably finalists last summer.
    Last edited by Jungle Jumbo; 18-03-2010 at 02:53 PM.

  3. #3
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Seems a bit of selective reporting of stats, for Cambidge (which we all know is the far superior anyway) six are born in England, one in Scotland and one unknown.

    And as for Oxford, they also have a Scot, and a South African who went to school in the UK.

    I think that 10 UK-born players, with four unknown, in the Varsity match is pretty good.


  4. #4
    International Regular NasserFan207's Avatar
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    Universities are FULL of people not born in the home country. At least my one is (its over 50%). Hardly surprising.


  5. #5
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Jumbo View Post
    This is Varsity sport for you though. The Blues sides are full of foreigners either doing (relatively) comfortable undergrad courses as mature students or post-grads who are there to play sport rather than do work.

    However it's not as bad for cricket as it is for the union Varsity match or the Boat Race because they're the bigger events and so there is both a greater allure for the players involved (i.e. Dan Vickerman is the Cambridge rugby captain) and a greater pressure for the Uni to produce results.

    Given that cricket is a minor sport in comparison to rugby and rowing, the players are less likely to be there for the sport (although many continue after studies for a year or post-grad for enjoyment) and more because they stood up to the academic criteria to begin with. This is increasingly the case with the fairer admissions system that makes it more difficult to let someone in based on the fact that they can score hundreds at will.

    The standard in Varsity cricket matches really isn't that high - it's probably the lowest standard first-class cricket played in the world, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe included. I've seen the Cambridge Uni captain from a couple of years back play - he lives near me - and he got dropped from a Premier League first XI last summer.

    The better players are those representing the UCCE (i.e. not just drawn from the Colleges, but from Oxford Brookes/Anglia Ruskin) who can effectively get in on a sports scholarship.

    EDIT: Just offering other suggestions... international students don't have be strictly admitted through the same criteria as UK students, so there would be more leeway to take someone in who happens to be good at sport.

    EDIT 2: Quick check of Uni contacts search seems to suggest that most of the side with names rare enough for me not to have to trawl through hundreds of entries suggests that most of the (Cambridge) players are still undergrads or are no longer at the Uni, which suggests they were probably finalists last summer.
    Would disagree there. Cricket on a par with union (the latter probably gets bigger domestic crowds, tbf, so may be slightly ahead) but a much bigger sport than rowing. Aside from the boat race & Olympics no one gives a rats.
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    State Captain Chubb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Would disagree there. Cricket on a par with union (the latter probably gets bigger domestic crowds, tbf, so may be slightly ahead) but a much bigger sport than rowing. Aside from the boat race & Olympics no one gives a rats.
    I think he means in university (specifically, Oxbridge) terms.
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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubb View Post
    I think he means in university (specifically, Oxbridge) terms.
    He did but it isnt true. Cricket is still massive and part of the big 3 at Oxbridge.

  8. #8
    SJS
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    One doesn't have to look at the University cricket to se what is happening.

    Here is a list (a quick work I must admit and there must be the odd omission) of players of Asian origin in the County Championship over the last sixty years.

    Code:
    YEAR/	Total 	Asian	% of 	Non England	Balance	Played for
    Season	Players	Origin	Asians	Test players 		England
    
    1960	442	5	1.1            	5       0	0
    1970	358	11	3.1            	9       2	0
    1980	379	18	4.7            	12     	6	0
    1990	468	12	2.6            	5       7	4
    2000	459	33	7.2            	5       28	9
    2009	482	55	11.4          	12     	43	13
    In 1960 the only Asian origin players playing in England were those playing for the Universities or those who had moved from University to counties. All, however played for their own countries.

    In 1970 foreign professionals were becoming common (mostly Pakistanis). Their numbers increased substantially by 1980's with two 'foreign' professionals per county side.

    It is only in the last ten to fifteen years that the number of Asian Origin cricketers who are not professionals from international sides has increased suddenly. There number, however, remains just about ten percent of the total number of county cricketers. Not such a big number in today's world. The worrying aspect ofr England is that about a quarter of them are ending up playing for England.

    So not only is the number of ethnic English boys going down in the ranks, their standards would appear to be declining.

    I am sure the figures would appear worse if one took into account cricketers from other countries around the world into account.

    One keeps hearing from friends in England about how the policy of taking foreign professionals has been bad for English cricket. I am not so sure that address the real issue. Is the young English lad really keen on the game? And how good are they at it anyway?
    Last edited by SJS; 19-03-2010 at 08:34 AM.

  9. #9
    International Vice-Captain Jungle Jumbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    He did but it isnt true. Cricket is still massive and part of the big 3 at Oxbridge.
    Hmmm, it's definitely the 3rd biggest sport, but in the Varsity rugby match gets talked up for months in advance, draws TV coverage and drags in players who are essentially moving down a level to play there. They're all grad students, whereas cricket, as I've suggested above, is stil played by the predominantly undergrad population. It's definitely a lower standard, anyhow.

  10. #10
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    One doesn't have to look at the University cricket to se what is happening.

    Here is a list (a quick work I must admit and there must be the odd omission) of players of Asian origin in the County Championship over the last sixty years.

    Code:
    YEAR/	Total 	Asian	% of 	Non England	Balance	Played for
    Season	Players	Origin	Asians	Test players 		England
    
    1960	442	5	1.1            	5       0	0
    1970	358	11	3.1            	9       2	0
    1980	379	18	4.7            	12     	6	0
    1990	468	12	2.6            	5       7	4
    2000	459	33	7.2            	5       28	8
    2009	482	55	11.4          	12     	43	11
    In 1960 the only Asian origin players playing in England were those playing for the Universities or those who had moved from University to counties. All, however played for their own countries.

    In 1970 foreign professionals were becoming common (mostly Pakistanis). Their numbers increased substantially by 1980's with two 'foreign' professionals per county side.

    It is only in the last ten to fifteen years that the number of Asian Origin cricketers who are not professionals from international sides has increased suddenly. There number, however, remains just about ten percent of the total number of county cricketers. Not such a big number in today's world. The worrying aspect ofr England is that about a quarter of them are ending up playing for England.

    So not only is the number of ethnic English boys going down in the ranks, their standards would appear to be declining.

    I am sure the figures would appear worse if one took into account cricketers from other countries around the world into account.

    One keeps hearing from friends in England about how the policy of taking foreign professionals has been bad for English cricket. I am not so sure that address the real issue. Is the young English lad really keen on the game? And how good are they at it anyway?
    Do you mean born/brought up in Asia by Asian Origin, or 'British Asian'? Cause if it's the former it's worrying, but if it's the later then it's really good news to see numbers going up imo.

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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by four_or_six View Post
    Do you mean born/brought up in Asia by Asian Origin, or 'British Asian'? Cause if it's the former it's worrying, but if it's the later then it's really good news to see numbers going up imo.
    Well it is mixed but those born in England are in majority.

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    Hall of Fame Member superkingdave's Avatar
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    Panesar, Shah, Bopara, Mahmood, Kabir Ali, Usman Afzaal, Amjad Khan...can only count 7....and its surely not a bad thing that more British-Asians are playing cricket in the Counties and for England? I fail to see how it can be worrying if Asians end up playing for England,
    Last edited by superkingdave; 19-03-2010 at 04:02 AM.
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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkingdave View Post
    Panesar, Shah, Bopara, Mahmood, Kabir Ali, Usman Afzaal, Amjad Khan...can only count 7....,
    There is also
    1. Mascarenhas
    2. Shahzad
    3. Rashid
    4. Kabir
    5. Ramprakash
    6. Patel and
    7. Solanki


    Making it 14 out of a pool of 43.

    Quote Originally Posted by superkingdave View Post
    its surely not a bad thing that more British-Asians are playing cricket in the Counties and for England? I fail to see how it can be worrying if Asians end up playing for England,
    Its not worrying for me

    In fact I agree with you. Its a good thing.

    I am just explaining the phenomenon and the first reaction of almost all of the people I have discussed this matter with during my visits to England. They all seem to find the system of "outsiders' being brought in as being detrimental to the domestic cricket by discouraging the local lads.

    My point is just that the fault does not lie with the policy change in County cricket but the overall turning away of the white child (if you please) from the game. I think the Asian child has just filled in a need of the system and it is good for English cricket as you too seem to say.

    I am just stating that if there is any worry (by the ethnic English) about the game "dying" as it were, they must try and understand, and address if possible, the reasons for the lack of interest (relatively speaking) of the ethnic British boy in the game. I do not profess to know the reasons myself
    Last edited by SJS; 19-03-2010 at 08:48 AM.

  14. #14
    International Vice-Captain Faisal1985's Avatar
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    lol, don't you get it, desi ppl own the world...

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    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    ethnic english boy? wtf?

    so a fella who's a born and brought-up yorkshireman but happens to be brown-skinned is not 'ethnically english?'

    i thought we'd moved on from race/skin-colour based labeling a few decades ago?

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