Further notice the England born players are not coming through.

[Goughy]

Im not upset or disappointed but I was suprised by how few English players took part in the 2009 University game.

Varsity Match: Cambridge University v Oxford University at Cambridge, Jul 7-10, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

The Oxford vs Cambridge game still has FC satus but according to cricinfo only 2 players for Oxford (with 3 others without details) were born in England.

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

This is Varsity sport for you though. The Blues sides are full of foreigners either doing (relatively) comfortable undergrad courses as mature students or post-grads who are there to play sport rather than do work.

However it's not as bad for cricket as it is for the union Varsity match or the Boat Race because they're the bigger events and so there is both a greater allure for the players involved (i.e. Dan Vickerman is the Cambridge rugby captain) and a greater pressure for the Uni to produce results.

Given that cricket is a minor sport in comparison to rugby and rowing, the players are less likely to be there for the sport (although many continue after studies for a year or post-grad for enjoyment) and more because they stood up to the academic criteria to begin with. This is increasingly the case with the fairer admissions system that makes it more difficult to let someone in based on the fact that they can score hundreds at will.

The standard in Varsity cricket matches really isn't that high - it's probably the lowest standard first-class cricket played in the world, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe included. I've seen the Cambridge Uni captain from a couple of years back play - he lives near me - and he got dropped from a Premier League first XI last summer.

The better players are those representing the UCCE (i.e. not just drawn from the Colleges, but from Oxford Brookes/Anglia Ruskin) who can effectively get in on a sports scholarship.

EDIT: Just offering other suggestions... international students don't have be strictly admitted through the same criteria as UK students, so there would be more leeway to take someone in who happens to be good at sport.

EDIT 2: Quick check of Uni contacts search seems to suggest that most of the side with names rare enough for me not to have to trawl through hundreds of entries suggests that most of the (Cambridge) players are still undergrads or are no longer at the Uni, which suggests they were probably finalists last summer.

 

[four_or_six]

Seems a bit of selective reporting of stats, for Cambidge (which we all know is the far superior anyway) six are born in England, one in Scotland and one unknown.

And as for Oxford, they also have a Scot, and a South African who went to school in the UK.

I think that 10 UK-born players, with four unknown, in the Varsity match is pretty good.

 

[NasserFan207]

Universities are FULL of people not born in the home country. At least my one is (its over 50%). Hardly surprising.

 

[BoyBrumby]

This is Varsity sport for you though. The Blues sides are full of foreigners either doing (relatively) comfortable undergrad courses as mature students or post-grads who are there to play sport rather than do work.

However it's not as bad for cricket as it is for the union Varsity match or the Boat Race because they're the bigger events and so there is both a greater allure for the players involved (i.e. Dan Vickerman is the Cambridge rugby captain) and a greater pressure for the Uni to produce results.

Given that cricket is a minor sport in comparison to rugby and rowing, the players are less likely to be there for the sport (although many continue after studies for a year or post-grad for enjoyment) and more because they stood up to the academic criteria to begin with. This is increasingly the case with the fairer admissions system that makes it more difficult to let someone in based on the fact that they can score hundreds at will.

The standard in Varsity cricket matches really isn't that high - it's probably the lowest standard first-class cricket played in the world, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe included. I've seen the Cambridge Uni captain from a couple of years back play - he lives near me - and he got dropped from a Premier League first XI last summer.

The better players are those representing the UCCE (i.e. not just drawn from the Colleges, but from Oxford Brookes/Anglia Ruskin) who can effectively get in on a sports scholarship.

EDIT: Just offering other suggestions... international students don't have be strictly admitted through the same criteria as UK students, so there would be more leeway to take someone in who happens to be good at sport.

EDIT 2: Quick check of Uni contacts search seems to suggest that most of the side with names rare enough for me not to have to trawl through hundreds of entries suggests that most of the (Cambridge) players are still undergrads or are no longer at the Uni, which suggests they were probably finalists last summer.

Would disagree there. Cricket on a par with union (the latter probably gets bigger domestic crowds, tbf, so may be slightly ahead) but a much bigger sport than rowing. Aside from the boat race & Olympics no one gives a rats.

 

[Chubb]

Would disagree there. Cricket on a par with union (the latter probably gets bigger domestic crowds, tbf, so may be slightly ahead) but a much bigger sport than rowing. Aside from the boat race & Olympics no one gives a rats.

I think he means in university (specifically, Oxbridge) terms.

 

[Goughy]

I think he means in university (specifically, Oxbridge) terms.

He did but it isnt true. Cricket is still massive and part of the big 3 at Oxbridge.

 

[SJS]

One doesn't have to look at the University cricket to se what is happening.

Here is a list (a quick work I must admit and there must be the odd omission) of players of Asian origin in the County Championship over the last sixty years.

[B]YEAR/	Total 	Asian	% of 	Non England	Balance	Played for
Season	Players	Origin	Asians	Test players 		England[/B]

1960	442	5	1.1            	5       0	0
1970	358	11	3.1            	9       2	0
1980	379	18	4.7            	12     	6	0
1990	468	12	2.6            	5       7	4
2000	459	33	7.2            	5       28	9
2009	482	55	11.4          	12     	43	13

In 1960 the only Asian origin players playing in England were those playing for the Universities or those who had moved from University to counties. All, however played for their own countries.

In 1970 foreign professionals were becoming common (mostly Pakistanis). Their numbers increased substantially by 1980's with two 'foreign' professionals per county side.

It is only in the last ten to fifteen years that the number of Asian Origin cricketers who are not professionals from international sides has increased suddenly. There number, however, remains just about ten percent of the total number of county cricketers. Not such a big number in today's world. The worrying aspect ofr England is that about a quarter of them are ending up playing for England.

So not only is the number of ethnic English boys going down in the ranks, their standards would appear to be declining.

I am sure the figures would appear worse if one took into account cricketers from other countries around the world into account.

One keeps hearing from friends in England about how the policy of taking foreign professionals has been bad for English cricket. I am not so sure that address the real issue. Is the young English lad really keen on the game? And how good are they at it anyway?

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

He did but it isnt true. Cricket is still massive and part of the big 3 at Oxbridge.

Hmmm, it's definitely the 3rd biggest sport, but in the Varsity rugby match gets talked up for months in advance, draws TV coverage and drags in players who are essentially moving down a level to play there. They're all grad students, whereas cricket, as I've suggested above, is stil played by the predominantly undergrad population. It's definitely a lower standard, anyhow.

 

[four_or_six]

One doesn't have to look at the University cricket to se what is happening.

Here is a list (a quick work I must admit and there must be the odd omission) of players of Asian origin in the County Championship over the last sixty years.

[B]YEAR/	Total 	Asian	% of 	Non England	Balance	Played for
Season	Players	Origin	Asians	Test players 		England[/B]

1960	442	5	1.1            	5       0	0
1970	358	11	3.1            	9       2	0
1980	379	18	4.7            	12     	6	0
1990	468	12	2.6            	5       7	4
2000	459	33	7.2            	5       28	8
2009	482	55	11.4          	12     	43	11

In 1960 the only Asian origin players playing in England were those playing for the Universities or those who had moved from University to counties. All, however played for their own countries.

In 1970 foreign professionals were becoming common (mostly Pakistanis). Their numbers increased substantially by 1980's with two 'foreign' professionals per county side.

It is only in the last ten to fifteen years that the number of Asian Origin cricketers who are not professionals from international sides has increased suddenly. There number, however, remains just about ten percent of the total number of county cricketers. Not such a big number in today's world. The worrying aspect ofr England is that about a quarter of them are ending up playing for England.

So not only is the number of ethnic English boys going down in the ranks, their standards would appear to be declining.

I am sure the figures would appear worse if one took into account cricketers from other countries around the world into account.

One keeps hearing from friends in England about how the policy of taking foreign professionals has been bad for English cricket. I am not so sure that address the real issue. Is the young English lad really keen on the game? And how good are they at it anyway?

Do you mean born/brought up in Asia by Asian Origin, or 'British Asian'? Cause if it's the former it's worrying, but if it's the later then it's really good news to see numbers going up imo.

 

[SJS]

Do you mean born/brought up in Asia by Asian Origin, or 'British Asian'? Cause if it's the former it's worrying, but if it's the later then it's really good news to see numbers going up imo.

Well it is mixed but those born in England are in majority.

 

[superkingdave]

Panesar, Shah, Bopara, Mahmood, Kabir Ali, Usman Afzaal, Amjad Khan...can only count 7....and its surely not a bad thing that more British-Asians are playing cricket in the Counties and for England? I fail to see how it can be worrying if Asians end up playing for England,

 

[SJS]

Panesar, Shah, Bopara, Mahmood, Kabir Ali, Usman Afzaal, Amjad Khan...can only count 7....,

There is also

1. Mascarenhas
2. Shahzad
3. Rashid
4. Kabir
5. Ramprakash
6. Patel and
7. Solanki

Making it 14 out of a pool of 43.

its surely not a bad thing that more British-Asians are playing cricket in the Counties and for England? I fail to see how it can be worrying if Asians end up playing for England,

Its not worrying for me

In fact I agree with you. Its a good thing.

I am just explaining the phenomenon and the first reaction of almost all of the people I have discussed this matter with during my visits to England. They all seem to find the system of "outsiders' being brought in as being detrimental to the domestic cricket by discouraging the local lads.

My point is just that the fault does not lie with the policy change in County cricket but the overall turning away of the white child (if you please) from the game. I think the Asian child has just filled in a need of the system and it is good for English cricket as you too seem to say.

I am just stating that if there is any worry (by the ethnic English) about the game "dying" as it were, they must try and understand, and address if possible, the reasons for the lack of interest (relatively speaking) of the ethnic British boy in the game. I do not profess to know the reasons myself

 

[Faisal1985]

lol, don't you get it, desi ppl own the world...

i.e. Vancouver's official second language is Punjabi.

 

[Beleg]

ethnic english boy? wtf?

so a fella who's a born and brought-up yorkshireman but happens to be brown-skinned is not 'ethnically english?'

i thought we'd moved on from race/skin-colour based labeling a few decades ago?

 

[Faisal1985]

i thought we'd moved on from race/skin-colour based labeling a few decades ago?

And you thought wrong.

 

[BoyBrumby]

ethnic english boy? wtf?

so a fella who's a born and brought-up yorkshireman but happens to be brown-skinned is not 'ethnically english?'

i thought we'd moved on from race/skin-colour based labeling a few decades ago?

I'm not sure "etnically English" has any meaning, most of the UK's white population are Anglo-Celtic mutts (self included), however players from south Asian backgrounds are definitely over-represented pro-rata (IIRC about 5% of the general British population is of sub-continental extraction) in the county so there are possibly factors at play, be they a genetic predisposition or familial influences.

 

[pskov]

I think when the vast, vast majority of people complain about England not picking 'English' players they are talking about picking the likes of Trott, Pattinson and Pietersen and to a lesser extent Strauss and Prior. I don't think anyone other than the ludicrously ignorant think picking players of Asian heritage such as Panesar, Mahmood and Rashid is an issue.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think when the vast, vast majority of people complain about England not picking 'English' players they are talking about picking the likes of Trott, Pattinson and Pietersen and to a lesser extent Strauss and Prior. I don't think anyone other than the ludicrously ignorant think picking players of Asian heritage such as Panesar, Mahmood and Rashid is an issue.

No, quite the opposite in fact. There have actually been more than one hand-wringing article over the past few years about the lack of Afro-Caribbean players coming thru (Carberry the first since...Tudor?), so I think our Asian representation is v healthy & even a source of some pride.

To take up on the SA-raised players tho, it is a little worrying that they do seem so much the superiors of the native-raised (and this includes the likes of Shah and Bopara) talent. That, to me, is the real cause for worry.

 

[SJS]

No, quite the opposite in fact. There have actually been more than one hand-wringing article over the past few years about the lack of Afro-Caribbean players coming thru (Carberry the first since...Tudor?), so I think our Asian representation is v healthy & even a source of some pride.

To take up on the SA-raised players tho, it is a little worrying that they do seem so much the superiors of the native-raised (and this includes the likes of Shah and Bopara) talent. That, to me, is the real cause for worry.

There was a very interesting article on the problems of South Africans in English cricket on the BBC site some months back.

The rise of the English South Africans

Quoting Neil Manthrope, the writer says...

"The reality is cricket at school and club level in South Africa is still active and strong, whereas every time I come to England I see more and more clubs close, and more schools where the game is no longer played. The game there is certainly in decline."

It is a depressing view which the England and Wales Cricket Board will dispute, as they continue to talk of their commitment to delivering funds to the grass-roots of the game.

But the irony is that because of the apparent lack of high-class homegrown players, there are more places at the counties for immigrant South Africans - or imports from anywhere else, provided they meet the increasingly complicated entry criteria.

These players, in turn, help raise the standard of county cricket - despite the ECB's reservations - and as a result the counties should eventually deliver better-prepared candidates for the international game.

So just remember that when Pietersen, Trott and Kieswetter celebrate winning the World Cup in 2015.​

It is very interesting to read the comments after the article was published online. Strong feelings against the playing of those not born and brought up in England.