Shocking Declines

[zaremba]

How so - does Ian Bell score 350 runs every time he goes out to bat against Bangladesh?

No - that's not what a batting average purports to show. But it's true to say that so far he's scored 350 runs for every time they've managed to get him out. I don't see why he should be in any sense "marked down" for the occasions when he's been too good for the opposition to get him out.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Can see both sides, but IMHO there are times (like with Ding Dong in the second innings of the first test v yer Banglas) where batsmen are playing with the whiff of that average-boosting red ink in their nostrils.

See also every innings Jacques Kallis has ever played.

 

[zaremba]

Can see both sides, but IMHO there are times (like with Ding Dong in the second innings of the first test v yer Banglas) where batsmen are playing with the whiff of that average-boosting red ink in their nostrils.

See also every innings Jacques Kallis has ever played.

Ah yes there are players that play for the red ink and nurse their average. SR Waugh would be able to tell you all about that.

 

[fredfertang]

No - that's not what a batting average purports to show. But it's true to say that so far he's scored 350 runs for every time they've managed to get him out. I don't see why he should be in any sense "marked down" for the occasions when he's been too good for the opposition to get him out.

That reasoning is all very well, and I know you're right really, but I rather went off it in 1989 after Steve Waugh's behaviour

 

[zaremba]

That reasoning is all very well, and I know you're right really, but I rather went off it in 1989 after Steve Waugh's behaviour

Yes, I completely agree that Australian batting averages in Ashes Tests do certainly need an extra layer of scrutiny.

 

[stumpski]

I well remember journeyman Surrey seamer Ray Baker topping the season's batting averages after being dismissed only twice all year, and of course there was this famous occurrence (which involved some collusion I believe):

The Home of CricketArchive

 

[Richard]

How so - does Ian Bell score 350 runs every time he goes out to bat against Bangladesh?

An average isn't a reflection of what someone scores every time they go out to bat - it's a reflection of ability.

 

[Richard]

I well remember journeyman Surrey seamer Ray Baker topping the season's batting averages after being dismissed only twice all year, and of course there was this famous occurrence (which involved some collusion I believe):

The Home of CricketArchive

That's nowhere near as bad as some upstart nobody batsman sending down a joke over or 2 at the end of a completely dead Championship game, being gifted 1-3, then never bowling again all season and thus topping the averages.

 

[kingkallis]

Makhaya Ntini gotta be there, just a couple years ago he took more wickets than anyone else that calendar year, now he's all but written off.

2007 it was... [ Both tests and ODIs ]

He remarkably killed entire Aussie innings in an ODI where they were bowled out for 84 or 85!

 

[kingkallis]

Irfan Pathan
Maninder Singh
Narendra Hirwani
Shiva
Herschelle Gibbs
Basit Ali
Ajantha Mendis

Beefy beats all them though!

 

[slippy]

Sherwin Campbell

 

[Richard]

Campbell was up-and-down a lot all career too - and he was never either up or down for very long.

 

[Cevno]

Rahul Dravid has had a pretty steep decline too ,from 2006/07 to 2009.

Though don't know if it is that steep.

And if we are mentioning players who excited at the start and then fizzled out too, how about Munaf patel?

 

[Richard]

Irfan Pathan
Maninder Singh
Narendra Hirwani
Shiva
Herschelle Gibbs
Basit Ali
Ajantha Mendis

Beefy beats all them though!

Shiva = Siva(ramakrishnan)?

If so I'd say all of he, Pathan, Maninder and Hirwani were never-really-were's more than anything. I don't know the ins and outs of the 1980s spinners but they only had very short-term periods of success. Pathan I was always adamant I didn't rate and I'm not surprised how he's turned-out.

Gibbs TBH I never really rated either, he was always down when faced with quality bowling and often up when faced with weak bowling.

Mendis it's far too early to draw any concrete conclusions, and Basit Ali's case I really don't know all that much about at all.

 

[Jarquis]

Rahul Dravid has had a pretty steep decline too ,from 2006/07 to 2009.

Though don't know if it is that steep.

And if we are mentioning players who excited at the start and then fizzled out too, how about Munaf patel?

Averages 42.53 in 33 Tests from 01 Jan 2007. 57.58 in his 106 Tests before then.

 

[Lostman]

It would be interesting to see the stats of these players in 1/3 of games played.
I think that is a more accurate reflection of a players career path instead of a half.

1st third-rookie years establishing oneself.
2nd- prime years, experience and physical ability together.
3rd- diminished physical ability and decline

There would be a few outliers in terms of late starts, but I think most players would follow such a path.

 

[Richard]

Averages 42.53 in 33 Tests from 01 Jan 2007. 57.58 in his 106 Tests before then.

Like Tendulkar he's had a renaissance of late though (though Dravid's is much more recent than Tendulkar's - Tendulkar's renaissance started when Dravid's decline did - the South Africa tour of 2006/07).

Not sure what Dravid averages since that century against England in 2008/09 but I'd be willing to bet it was decent at worst.

 

[Richard]

It would be interesting to see the stats of these players in 1/3 of games played.
I think that is a more accurate reflection of a players career path instead of a half.

1st third-rookie years establishing oneself.
2nd- prime years, experience and physical ability together.
3rd- diminished physical ability and decline

There would be a few outliers in terms of late starts, but I think most players would follow such a path.

More players than not follow such a path, but the first and third phases in the case of good Test cricketers usually last no more than 3-4 games (sometimes 8-9) or so, while the middle phase will hopefully last however many games are played over the course of ~10 years. When I judge a player who's had a lengthy spell of being Test-class, I exclude such rookie\diminished-period games and examine only the stage in which they were what they are remembered as - good Test players.

Of those who had periods fitting said description which were all considerable in length the only ones who come to mind are Mike Gatting and Mushtaq Ahmed.

 

[Jarquis]

Like Tendulkar he's had a renaissance of late though (though Dravid's is much more recent than Tendulkar's - Tendulkar's renaissance started when Dravid's decline did - the South Africa tour of 2006/07).

Not sure what Dravid averages since that century against England in 2008/09 but I'd be willing to bet it was decent at worst.

1022 runs at an average of 78.61 from nine Tests.

To put the renaissance into some sort of perspective, between the aforemtnioned date of 01 Jan 2007 and his century against England. Dravid mustered 1411 runs from 25 Tests at 32.81.

 

[Cevno]

Averages 42.53 in 33 Tests from 01 Jan 2007. 57.58 in his 106 Tests before then.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Averaged about 34 in 30 tests in this period .

And if u remove the Newzealand tour in 2009 , he averaged 30.08 in 27 tests in a continuity from dec 2006 to march 2009.

And if u remove one test against bangladesh too ,he averaged below 30(28 odd) in 26 tests.

Before this he was averaging 58.21 In 105 TESTS.