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Ageing Genius - Lara, Ponting and Viv

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
A couple of posters were talking about Ponting in recent times. He seems to be in imperious form at times, ridiculously vulnerable at times. He's almost bipolar in some ways.

Jono then asked whether Lara was similar in his twilight, and it is certainly how I remember him. Rather than being the great deity he was in his prime, where you hoped for a moment of mortality from him to capture his wicket, Lara was "one of us" who would occasionally show a moment of utter impossibility. Often this would be at a crucial moment, or when people were most doubting him.

I was wondering whether this is in common with other greats; for those who were around at the times, does this sort of pattern sound familiar to Viv Richards, as it is the impression I've had from those who've talked about his batting after his prime. Are there others who follow this trend?
 

Spark

Global Moderator
With Ponting right now as I was saying in the other thread, I think it's his mental issues, not his physical/technical ones getting the better of him right now. Age might be a factor but more in the manner of him being aware of it and then making strange decisions. I mean - how much has he gotten out to legitimately good bowling over the last summer, and how much has he gotten out to silly shots, like pulling/hooking down fine leg's throat on 0, pulling straight to midwicket (like just now), pulling a ball hitting two inches from the top of off, or just doing something completely bonkers like in the last game? When he does knuckle down and play his normal, determined game though he looks really good as he did in both Bellerive innings, aside from the first 50.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dont think it's a coincidence that all 3 rely/relied on a great eye, fast hands and feet rather that stellar techniques as physical attributes are the first to go
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
It is so easy to look at his stats(I am sorry don't want a stat debate, just IMO) after so many years and say he played far too long, but I don't remember IVA Richards going through that phase ever and it could be because the last I saw him bat was around in 1989.

When I watched him bat in the 1987-88 tour, he was magnificent as ever. His innings in Test match in Delhi and the ODI 100 at Rajkot where he 7 sixes and made his 100 in 68 balls.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
It is so easy to look at his stats(I am sorry don't want a stat debate, just IMO) after so many years and say he played far too long, but I don't remember IVA Richards going through that phase ever and it could be because the last I saw him bat was around in 1989.

When I watched him bat in the 1987-88 tour, he was magnificent as ever. His innings in Test match in Delhi and the ODI 100 at Rajkot where he 7 sixes and made his 100 in 68 balls.
To take an example from Lara, some people who went and saw his double century in his last tour in Adelaide would say the same thing.

But, as I said, you were there at the time, so maybe that its an impression that has been painted on me from people in hindsight, rather than at the time. :)
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Well those two innings stand out that I still remember, but I watched both the series and I didn't believe IVA had lost any of his skills. But again I could be mistaken, we didn't have so many games in those days .
 

Riggins

International Captain
Dont think it's a coincidence that all 3 rely/relied on a great eye, fast hands and feet rather that stellar techniques as physical attributes are the first to go
What is technique other than eyes, hands and feet??
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
It is so easy to look at his stats(I am sorry don't want a stat debate, just IMO) after so many years and say he played far too long, but I don't remember IVA Richards going through that phase ever and it could be because the last I saw him bat was around in 1989.

When I watched him bat in the 1987-88 tour, he was magnificent as ever. His innings in Test match in Delhi and the ODI 100 at Rajkot where he 7 sixes and made his 100 in 68 balls.
You’re right, Viv was in excellent form in 1988, and carried it through until the end of the 88/89 series in Australia. In hindsight, that is probably when he should have retired (from an average-preserving POV anyway) because in his last 17 Tests after that series he averaged just 34 with one century.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Richards had a shocker in the 1989 series at home to India - that series begun inglorious final phases in the careers of himself, Greenidge and (as a batsman) Dujon - it was also a chastening debut series for Keith Arthurton, who would eventually come back strong 3 years later. And most of the Indians could barely make a run.

Richards in his last series in England however appears to have been a master giving one final glimpse of his excellence. Apart from that series, there wasn't a lot of good in him playing Tests after the 1988/89 Australian tour.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Dont think it's a coincidence that all 3 rely/relied on a great eye, fast hands and feet rather that stellar techniques as physical attributes are the first to go
Always held this thought, and its why I believe Kallis, Sachin and Dravid (though Dravid was/is testing my theory with that awful run from 2007-2008) have the ability to perhaps go on longer than a Viv, Lara, Ponting, Sehwag (not that he's in their class yet) without being quite unpredictable.

Only time will tell for Ponting, but its why I believe he won't pass Sachin's most runs. Just a hunch, don't have any facts other than a decline which I don't think Kallis has ever experienced.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Kallis is a funny one, in that his eye has seemed to fail him regularly throughout his career. Honestly can't count the number of times I've seen him simply not sight a really full ball at all - has happened in every single series I've seen him involved in against England (1998, 1999/2000, 2003, 2004/05, more than ever in 2008, didn't see enough of 2009/10 to comment).

Really weird that he can have been so effective as he has been despite a pretty clear weakness.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Personally, felt Lara was as good as ever 2005, 2006 and he retired in 2007 May.. So I am not sure how it goes... Didn't think his technique was any sorta suspect at all.. And in that Aussie tour, he was done in by poor umpiring at least 3 or 4 of his 8 innings... So I felt he was really fine during his ageing or however that is supposed to be said..
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Chanderpaul didn't do a whole lot before 30.
:blink:

Chanderpaul debuted at 19, averaged 59.55 in his first 9 Tests as a fill-in player, then averaged 51 in the next 12 after he became a fixture.

It was only between 1997/98 and 2001 that Chanderpaul disappointed, both in terms out output and fitness record. From 2001/02 (at the start of which he was still only 27) to the home spring of 2009, he averaged 59.52 in 64 matches against Test-standard teams - he had a bad time in the ad-hoc series in England (which shouldn't even really have been played) and didn't do very well in Australia a few months back either, but he should have plenty more chances ahead of him yet.
 

GuyFromLancs

State Vice-Captain
Kallis is a funny one, in that his eye has seemed to fail him regularly throughout his career. Honestly can't count the number of times I've seen him simply not sight a really full ball at all - has happened in every single series I've seen him involved in against England (1998, 1999/2000, 2003, 2004/05, more than ever in 2008, didn't see enough of 2009/10 to comment).

Really weird that he can have been so effective as he has been despite a pretty clear weakness.
Yes, technique over eye for Kallis. By technique I mean anticipation, intelligence, posture, stamina, knowing exactly your limitations, decision making.

Like Kallis, Michael Vaughan had the above but only average hand-eye co-ordination which is why he lost some fully deliveries around his feet and why when he did it looked so terrible.
 

Top_Cat

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Always held this thought, and its why I believe Kallis, Sachin and Dravid (though Dravid was/is testing my theory with that awful run from 2007-2008) have the ability to perhaps go on longer than a Viv, Lara, Ponting, Sehwag (not that he's in their class yet) without being quite unpredictable.

Only time will tell for Ponting, but its why I believe he won't pass Sachin's most runs. Just a hunch, don't have any facts other than a decline which I don't think Kallis has ever experienced.
Kallis did have a fairly low run for a while there, Ponting's showing signs of getting out of his too I reckon. A Test double against an admittedly ordinary Pakistan attack notwithstanding, his ODI knocks of late have been fantastic. Hitting them as well as I've seen for ages.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Like Sanz, I just don’t remember watching Viv in bad form. I’m sure it happened, but I have no recollection of it. All I remember, and admittedly it is foggy memory as I was in my early teens when Viv hung it up for good, is a devastating batsman that seemingly had no weakness. Any tapes/dvd’s that I have since watched of Viv also show no extended loss of form.
 

Burgey

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Like Sanz, I just don’t remember watching Viv in bad form. I’m sure it happened, but I have no recollection of it. All I remember, and admittedly it is foggy memory as I was in my early teens when Viv hung it up for good, is a devastating batsman that seemingly had no weakness. Any tapes/dvd’s that I have since watched of Viv also show no extended loss of form.
There was talk when he came here in 88-89 that he was on ths skids. I well remember the comms discussing it at some length and there being paper talk about it. I recall it mostly because Tony Cozier was commentating when Viv batted in Perth and made a pulverizing hundred (nearly decapitated Tim May with a straight drive at one point) and Cozier saying "Well, there doesn't seem to be much of a decline there" or some such thing.

FMD that man could play.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
There was talk when he came here in 88-89 that he was on ths skids. I well remember the comms discussing it at some length and there being paper talk about it. I recall it mostly because Tony Cozier was commentating when Viv batted in Perth and made a pulverizing hundred (nearly decapitated Tim May with a straight drive at one point) and Cozier saying "Well, there doesn't seem to be much of a decline there" or some such thing.

FMD that man could play.
146 off 150 balls IIRC, the innings was just one long highlights package.
 

Top_Cat

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Got a video where Ritchie interviews Viv for two hours interspersed with highlights and do remember Viv saying he found things harder from the '88 tour to England and beyond. Still found a way to score but, by then, he probably wasn't the go-to guy for the WI. That great knock in Perth was his first ton in 3 years and I'm (just) old enough to remember seeing him get out to balls he had previously knocked over mid-wicket for 6 towards the end.

Was 39 when he gave it away so he'd more than done his bit and was definitely still good enough to hold his place, though. By the end, though, Richardson was comfortably number 1 in the side.
 

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