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[ibiza]

Brilliant written as I was present for the five Days ....

My only engagement with you would be about Rodriguez , You see you may have missed the game when Trinidad and Tobago played against the Pommies a few days before .
If Arlot and Knowles were still alive commentators .

My memories recall for about an hour ends of days play , hot and very humid , he had the English is serious trouble , even Cowdrey was clueless and barely survived

to the next day . Willie was a special bowler , needed to be used in certain situations primarily on humid cloudy afternoons . Dont use him in the morning .

See I am gonna learn ya a few thing about West Indies Cricket ....hahahahaha

[Ike]

Hello, all. I've just joined the forum, and thought I'd introduce myself. Being a Yank with no background in cricket (see below), I suspect I may not be a 'typical' member of the forum. I may have opinions to share now and then, but mostly I'm here to learn.

I'm a life-long fan of American baseball (my avatar is a picture of my father's cousin, who was a Major League player in the 1920's), and probably first learned of cricket in my high school years (teens). I was intrigued by a game 'like' baseball, but much older and stats going much further back than baseball, which prides itself on the long history of its stats. However, back then with no internet, only 3 TV networks, etc., there was no practical way to follow up on my potential interest.

The next step in my cricket experience came in 1967. I got the opportunity to partcipate in a 'training dig' (archaelology) in Nottinghamshire, England. Near the village of Torksey, for those who know the area well enough. It was three weeks, and one of the professors was a cricket fan, and was interested that a Yank would want to learn about it. He taught me the basic rules (I still have a piece of paper on which he drew the basic defensemen positions). At the end of the dig I was able to see one day of a Test match between England and Pakistan at Trent Bridge (whose history I have only recently learned of).

After that, I had no contact with cricket until I learned (from one of my sons) a few months ago that espn3 was now ********* select cricket matches online. (since then I've also learned about, and use, Wiziwig). For the first time, I can see cricket on a regular basis. Now that I can do so, I've been studying the game seriously, just to try to get a good handle on it. I've read Cricket Explained (Robert Eastway), a very useful introduction, and Major's More that a Game, a very useful book, although a bit tough for a Yank, since Major assumes a lot of knowledge of cricket that we poor Yanks just don't have. I'm in the midst of Tom Smith's current edition of Cricket Umpiring and Scoring (MCC), which is a slow read but very helpful in learning the fine points of the rules. Other books I'm reading are Flannels on the Sward (Jayesh Patel), a history of cricket in the Americas (hard to read because it is, alas, poorly written, but full of info I could find nowhere else), and Trevor Bailey's Improve Your Cricket, a book I picked up in '67 in England, along with the 1967 Wisden. I've ordered the 2013 Wisden and the 150th Anniversary History of Wisden, but those haven't been delivered yet.

My teams: I'm a fan of the Windies, given the uphill battle they had to be accepted in the cricket community, plus their colorful and several truly great players. Also, espn3 shows a lot of their matches. I also root for Ireland, because of my own Irish ancestry, on my father's side. Plus it's great that their team reflects the whole country, which so much else in Irish society could learn from! Here's hoping they get Test Status and soon!

I have a couple of introductory questions (if anyone is reading this far, at least--and if so, thank you!). They may already be answered or discussed elsewhere in the forum. If so, please just direct me.

1. In the West Indies Super50 tournament, just concluded, one of the teams was CCC (Combined Colleges and Campuses). They barely got an invite, when the U.S. declined (alas), but they had made the finals in the previous Super50. Anyway, one of their players was 41 years old! So, I wonder, what are the rules for who can play on the CCC team? I've scoured the web, but can't find any information on the rules to be eligible for CCC. Does anyone know?

2. I'm fascinated by the names given to the defensemen positions in cricket. I've learned some from my old diagram from the 60's, from Eastaway, from many online discussions, and especially from listening to commentators during live matches. But there seems to be no uniformity. Here's an example: 3 slips are lined up, side by side, off from the keeper. Then there is a space and another defenseman, and a larger space and one more. I've heard commentators call this 5 slips, 3 slips and 2 gulleys, or 4 slips and a gulley. To me, it seems that most accurate would be 3 slips, a gulley , and a backward point (but I've never heard it described that way). Anyway, is there any place where all the positions and variations in nomenclature are discussed? There's lots of stuff on the web, but none seem comprehensive: they all lack some position names that some other sites list. Some other 'contradictions' I find are between fine leg, deep fine leg, and fine slip; short leg and silly leg, etc. Also, is the term 'cow corner' still in use? I've never heard the term used by live commentators. It's also supposed to be a bad swing to hit a drive to the cow corner, but I've seen a number of boundaries hit there, and there's never been any criticism of the swing, nor mention of 'cow corner' as the location of the drive. Anyway, any direction to a comprehensive discussion of positions would be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

[Adders]

Welcome to the forum Ike.

If it is cricket knowledge you seek then trust me you have come to the right place. I've been following cricket on and off for over 30 years and considered myself fairly knowledgeable on the game........when I joined here I soon realised how much there was still to learn, especially about its history and past legends.

Just FYI, we have a poster here from Canada who is hell bent on turning cricket into baseball and keeps proposing rule changes to this end. Nothing personal against baseball but we are cricket fanatics and love the game of cricket. You may want to keep any baseball references to a minimum just so that you aren't confused with this other fella

Here's an example: 3 slips are lined up, side by side, off from the keeper. Then there is a space and another defenseman, and a larger space and one more. I've heard commentators call this 5 slips, 3 slips and 2 gulleys, or 4 slips and a gulley. To me, it seems that most accurate would be 3 slips, a gulley , and a backward point (but I've never heard it described that way).

The key here is how the slips are staggered, on TV it can look like they are in a straight line towards gully but in fact they are behind that position.

This may be of some help to you......Cricket Fielding Positions and Pitch Layout

And these positions are most definitely not "defensemen positions" they are catching men and in there for the purpose of taking wickets not defending runs, so when you see a field set with 3/4 slips and a gully the fielding captain is very much on the attack.

Welcome again to the forum.

[Hurricane]

Hi Ike,

Please take this as a compliment but that is the longest post I have ever made it through - you are a skilled writer and you held my attention to the end. I look forward to your contributions on the forum.

Regarding cow corner - it is called that in club cricket but I have never heard it referred to in an international game. They just don't want to insult the batsman as usually he has placed it there skillfully - while people at my level tend to put it there by default when going for boundaries.

[Ike]

thank you both for your replies!

First a word about my attitude toward baseball. Yes, I love the game, have followed it for over 60 years now. But I love cricket too, and heaven forbid either one should ever be changed to be more like the other! That said, because I love both games, and they are 'related' to each other (just as football is related to rugby, as I learned in Major's book), I find it fascinating to compare the two games to note the most significant differences, and how those differences make each game unique with often surprising consequences. However, this is a cricket forum, not a cricket and baseball forum (alas, I doubt there is such a beast, though I'd love to participate in it if there were one--but hmm, maybe I could start a thread in off topic here! ). There is one cricket baseball question I really want to ask, to settle an argument with one of my sons, maybe I'll do that in off topic (it's about who is the cricketer who corresponds most closely in cricket history to Babe Ruth in baseball history. (My son says Bradford, but I'm sure it's Grace.)

Next, thank you for the insights on positions. I'm still learning proper terminology in cricket in general, and trying to avoid terms that come naturally from baseball. I try to always say batsman, for example, or striker/non-striker, instead of 'hitter', which I believe would sound weird and simply wrong in cricket. So I also try to avoid the term 'fielder', though maybe I'm wrong in that. I thought all players on the cricket field were 'defensemen', but apparently not. What is the proper terminology here? It's important to me, because just a with any language not one's native language, you can make major errors by misunderstanding or misusing a word in the 'language' of cricket. Also thanks for the insight to perspective from watching on TV. I had noticed that myself with regard to the length of the pitch. I know it's 20+ meters, but from the perspective TV always gives (viewed from behind the bowler), it looks so short! Only when they show a side view do you realize the distance the batsmen have to cover to score a run. However, I had not realized a similar problem of perspective applies to evaluating the position of slips and others near them. Following up, is there a position that is ever referred to as 'backward point', or does that position always end up being called a gulley?

Thanks for the link to the field positions as well. I hadn't seen it, and it gives more insights. However, like all the others I've looked at online and in books, it seems incomplete and contradicts other diagrams. Some examples: it shows no position of 'sweeper', at the boundary behind cover and extra cover. Nor does it show a position of long leg (between deep square leg and deep fine leg). It distinguishes between fine leg and deep fine leg, whereas some other diagrams (such as Eastaway's in his book) uses 'fine leg' for what CricketWeb's diagram calls 'deep fine leg'. Also, what about long stop? I've read about this position, but never seen it in any diagram. Maybe it's only used in County cricket (or only school cricket?), but it would still help to have it marked. Maybe I'll start a thread elsewhere about position nomenclature.

Thank you for all your comments, Adders.

And likewise, thanks to you, Hurricane. And yes, I do take it as a compliment. Your explanation of cow corner is really helpful, and I now understand why it's not referred to in international competitions. For folks who've grown up with the game, the nuances of school, county, and international cricket are second nature. When one is learning cricket rather like a 'second language', these things are total unknowns until one is enlightened.

Once again, thanks to you both, and I'll try to start posing my further questions from now on in threads in the appropriate places!

[Adders]

thank you both for your replies!

So I also try to avoid the term 'fielder', though maybe I'm wrong in that. I thought all players on the cricket field were 'defensemen', but apparently not. What is the proper terminology here? It's important to me, because just a with any language not one's native language, you can make major errors by misunderstanding or misusing a word in the 'language' of cricket.

The term fielder is correct. I'm certain that your knowledge of cricket is far superior to my knowledge of baseball, but my perception of baseball (and this could be 100% wrong) is that the batting side is considered offensive whilst the fielding side is defensive. In cricket (well test cricket) that is not the case at all and we certainly wouldn't use the term "defensemen" to describe fielders.

In Test cricket wickets count just as much as runs do towards a win. A team can outscore their opposition by 500 runs in a test match but the game will end a draw unless they can also take 20 wickets (bowl the opposition out twice) This is something that new or casual watchers often struggle with the game, that it can go for 5 days have 1 team score a load more runs than the other but the game end in no result........but this is the fundamental essence and the beauty of the sport. It is called test cricket because it is just that, a test of both batting and bowling.......you don't win unless you perform in both departments.

So what you find during the course of a test match is that depending on the match state, the batting side can either be on the attack or defending and likewise with the fielding side. but never think that the fielders are defensive by nature. This situation is different in limited overs cricket, in ODI's and T20 games runs are king, so you will for the most part find the fielding side more defensive and the batting team more aggressive.

Definately think you should start a dedicated thread where we can answer your questions and discuss the nuances of the game........will be better than carrying on here.

[Ike]

...

Definately think you should start a dedicated thread where we can answer your questions and discuss the nuances of the game........will be better than carrying on here.

Thanks and will do.

[Prince EWS]

The term "fielder" would've been deemed far less correct and proper 50 years ago, but it's very commonly used now to the point where "fieldsman" is rare. I suspect "batter" may become similar eventually; it's already accepted even if most people do realise "batsman" is the proper term.

[Hurricane]

The term "fielder" would've been deemed far less correct and proper 50 years ago, but it's very commonly used now to the point where "fieldsman" is rare. I suspect "batter" may become similar eventually; it's already accepted even if most people do realise "batsmen" is the proper term.

When we are looking for fillins for our club side if anyone introduces themselves to me as a batter, we put them at 11 in the order. And it is an accurate way of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

[Ike]

I have moved further discussion of my topic, as recommended, to the General Sports Forum, under the title "Field positions and offense vs defense in cricket, with baseball compare and contrast".

If anyone wishes to continue the discussion, please check there. Thanks for all you have all taught me!

[vipan]

Hi I am from India. I love to watch Tendulkar, Ponting, Abe and Ian Bell. I am a big fan of Shakibul Hasan, Sreesanth (the bowler in tests), Dale Steyn and Graeme Swann.

[Hooksey]

Hi I am from India. I love to watch Tendulkar, Ponting, Abe and Ian Bell. I am a big fan of Shakibul Hasan, Sreesanth (the bowler in tests), Dale Steyn and Graeme Swann.

Welcome to the clover patch mate. I don't think you'll be seeing much of half the players you named above any time soon though.

[Red rose bear]

Hi all...I have just stumbled across this forum. I am a Lancashire lass but have lived in Bear country for many years.
I was introduced to this fine game at a very young age and remember many a sunny(!) Sunday afternoon at Old Trafford watching John Player league 40 over games.
I have never lost my passion for the game and have been to an England game (ODI or test) on a regular basis. It is my ambition to watch 1st class cricket, doesn't have to be an international at the Kensington Oval, Bridgetown. We will be on holiday there when the Caribbean PL is on this year so I might even achieve that.

[fredfertang]

Hi all...I have just stumbled across this forum. I am a Lancashire lass but have lived in Bear country for many years.
I was introduced to this fine game at a very young age and remember many a sunny(!) Sunday afternoon at Old Trafford watching John Player league 40 over games.
I have never lost my passion for the game and have been to an England game (ODI or test) on a regular basis. It is my ambition to watch 1st class cricket, doesn't have to be an international at the Kensington Oval, Bridgetown. We will be on holiday there when the Caribbean PL is on this year so I might even achieve that.

Will you marry me?

[Red rose bear]

Will you marry me?

Sorry....you are 30 years too late!!