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Thread: Best players of big 3 and/or 4

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    State Regular Maximus0723's Avatar
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    Best players of big 3 and/or 4

    What batsmen did best against at least 3 of Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall.

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    International Debutant Dissector's Avatar
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    Gooch and Boycott in 80-81 have to be high on the list. Probably the best opening pair that the Windies pacemen ever faced. Perhaps some of the successful batsmen in the World Series like Barry Richards and Greg Chappell though I haven't separated out their performances against the Windies from their other games. Gavaskar is also up there. Averaging 40 against that attack in 83 was a significant achievement especially because he was the lynchpin of that batting lineup putting him under huge pressure every time he went out to bat.

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    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    Against Roberts ,Marshall and holding

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    Mohinder Amarnath comes top with 54.36 against them in 6 matches ,floowed by gavaskars 49.60 in 7 matches.

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    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    Against Garner,Roberts and Holding

    Mahinder amarnath averages 61.14 in 4 matches,followed by kim hughes 56.12 in 6 amtches and geoffrey Boycott with 50.20 in 5 matches.

    http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/...s;type=batting
    Last edited by Cevno; 07-03-2010 at 12:38 AM.


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    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    Against all 4.

    Mohinder Amarnath averages 61.14 in 4 amtches ,with Yashpal Sharma coming second at 43.80

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    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    Against garner,holding and Marshall

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    Amarnath again with 61.14 in 4 matches ,with John wright second at 51.85 in 4 matches and Martin crowe with 47.28 in 4 matches.

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    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    Against Garner ,Marshall and roberts-

    Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

    It's the same as all four.

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    International 12th Man
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    I thought Allan Border did the best against the Windies in the 80s? Too bad he wasn't a top-order batsman and only came in when the new ball had worn off.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Border rarely if ever batted below number-five, often four and occasionally three.

    Anyway there are two distinct things we need to remember - one, that the best four-man pace attack WI ever fielded (Roberts, Holding, Garner, Marshall) only played together for 4 Tests, all against India, so anyone who did well against them has to have been Indian. Two, only rarely did West Indies field a four-man pace attack where all could be called top-class Test bowlers - mostly it was two or three plus one or two more moderate types:
    1974/75: Roberts, Boyce, Julien, Holder (plus Gibbs - played 4 games together)
    1976: Roberts, Holding, Daniel, Holder (played 2 games together)
    1977-1978: Roberts, Garner, Croft, AN Other (usually a spinner - played 7 games together)
    1979/80-1981/82: Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft (played together consistently for a period of 23 Tests though sometimes one, or even two, was unfit - but the replacements were the likes of Marshall and Clarke)
    1983: Roberts, Holding, Garner, Marshall (4 Tests, as I say)
    1984: Marshall, Holding, Garner, Baptiste (8 Tests, though there was the odd game where one was unfit)
    1984/85: Marshall, Holding, Garner, Walsh (5 Tests)
    1985: Marshall, Holding, Garner, Davis (4 Tests)
    1986: Marshall, Holding, Garner, Patterson (5 Tests, Holding missed 1 of them)
    1986/87: Marshall, Walsh, Gray, AN Other (mostly a spinner) (6 Tests)
    1990/91: Bishop, Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall (3 Tests)
    1993: Bishop, Ambrose, Walsh, Winston Benjamin (1 Test, IIRR)
    1995: Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Kenneth Benjamin (6 Tests, 1 of which Benjamin missed)
    1997: Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Rose (7 Tests, 2 of which saw someone injured)
    2000: Ambrose, Walsh, Rose, King (lasted about 3 Tests)

    So by-and-large, runs scores against West Indies' first-team between 1976 and 1986/87 could be said to have come against a pace attack featuring rarely less than three top-class pace bowlers, but only very rarely four.
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    International 12th Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Border rarely if ever batted below number-five, often four and occasionally three.
    He batted more often at 5 or 6 then he did at 3 or 4.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    In 1984 and 1984/85 he batted at five in six out of the ten Tests, and three\four in the other four. In 1988/89 he batted at five throughout the five-Test series.

    Really not a tremendous amount of difference. Against that attack, it mattered not where you batted, really, and the difference between four and five under the vast majority of circumstances is so miniscule it matters not a jot.

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    Cricketer Of The Year wpdavid's Avatar
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    I was astonished to see how low Lamb's average was, given his three tons in 1984: perhaps Marshall, Holding & Garner didn't play in all three of those tests. No arguing with the facts though.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    From memory I think Marshall missed one of the five and Holding another; the replacements, Milton Small and Winston Davis, were notably several classes behind. Not sure if Lamb made centuries in one or both of those games.

    Funny thing about Lamb is for all his excellence in 1984, he was unable to do anything much in 1986 (even Gooch was almost tamed that series, which surely must be the most comprehensive thrashing any England Test side has ever received), I don't remember what he did in 1988, and from memory don't think he did much in 1991 either.

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    Cricketer Of The Year wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    From memory I think Marshall missed one of the five and Holding another; the replacements, Milton Small and Winston Davis, were notably several classes behind. Not sure if Lamb made centuries in one or both of those games.

    Funny thing about Lamb is for all his excellence in 1984, he was unable to do anything much in 1986 (even Gooch was almost tamed that series, which surely must be the most comprehensive thrashing any England Test side has ever received), I don't remember what he did in 1988, and from memory don't think he did much in 1991 either.
    I think you're right about 1988 & 1991. But in terms of this particular thread, Holding & Garner (+ Roberts of course) were gone by then. And yes, 1986 was horrible.

  15. #15
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    These stats (admittedly focused around 1983 series) bring back something I've found to be a discrepancy. On one hand, there is a somewhat heroic description of Gavaskar plowing a lonely furrow in Indian batting (one post in this thread, as eg).

    OTOH he usually had 2 out of Vishy, Amarnath and Vengsarkar in the middle order (even Azhar for the last few years) - these are fairly decent players, even if not Dravids they are at least Gangulys and Laxmans. For opening partners , he had Chetan Chauhan (who certainly teamed up very well with Sunny, regardless of how good he himself was) or Gaekwad and Srikkanth for a huge portion of his innings and more or less throughout his career.

    IOW what is brushed off as supporting cast for Gavaskar, might be among the more underrated single group of batsmen. Even against pace he didn't quite have the same skittish bunch as before or at the start of his career (Nari Contractor's near fatal accident in the 60's probably contributed to their mindset) as Jimmy Amarnath's stats indicate.

    p.s. Interestingly, perhaps similar treatment for Bradman's team mates?

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