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View Poll Results: Who is the best ODI batsman of all time?

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  • IVA Richards

    51 56.67%
  • SR Tendulkar

    39 43.33%
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Thread: Richards v Tendulkar - ODIs

  1. #751
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Not the same scenario though. Vettori is not the best spinner of his generation, and Lara played best of his generation well. But in IVARs case, Chandra was THE BEST spinner of the era. And he struggled against the BEST spinner when conditions are helpful. But spinners of current generation are class above Chandra. So expect more trouble to batsmen.
    Lara has a pretty crap record against one of the most ordinary spinners of the last couple decades yet in that time also beat the daylights out of the two best of all time. It shows the fallacy of making generalisations.

    Even when you look at Richards' record in matches against Chandra, he gets better as he plays him and in the end averaged 93 against Chandra in the 4 match series in the WIndies.

    The 4 matches he had played earlier (he played 8 in total against chandra) was his debut Test series. And in the match that Chandra missed (I don't know the reason, I just know he missed it) he scored 192* against the rest of India's spin attack which had bowlers who were very good (Bedi, Prasanna).

    IMO, you're making much too much of too little.
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  2. #752
    Hall of Fame Member Sanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    but migara... scoring 333 in 45 overs back in 1983 is like scoring 500 in 50 overs these days..
    Hey Bagapath,

    Just wanted to add, that Keenan ground then was everything that today's pitches are. smaller ground, flattest of the flat track. While Viv's inning was great, people in my town still talk about the 100 Greenidge made and some of the sixes he hit. Being the local boy, I distinctly remember how far some Greenidge sixes went on that morning.

    Just one of the most breath taking attacking batting of all time.

  3. #753
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Lara has a pretty crap record against one of the most ordinary spinners of the last couple decades yet in that time also beat the daylights out of the two best of all time. It shows the fallacy of making generalisations.
    Vettori, ordinary spinner in ODIs? whew! That's news for me.
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  4. #754
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Vettori, ordinary spinner in ODIs? whew! That's news for me.
    He's definitely not ordinary, but he's not a big wicket-taker at all. You certainly wouldn't expect him to have the wood on Brian Lara in any case.


  5. #755
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Vettori, ordinary spinner in ODIs? whew! That's news for me.
    Depends who you compare him to really. Uppercut has the idea though.

    FTR, I was talking about Tests.

  6. #756
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Depends who you compare him to really. Uppercut has the idea though.

    FTR, I was talking about Tests.
    That is the very fact I wanted to keep Chandra out of it. Except for Qadir, Viv never played a decent ODI spinner, at least with Vettori's quality.

    There's no questions that IVAR has a superior record, by comparing standardized stats, but that too nothing as great as what is made up of. IVARs ability against spin is his biggest critic. IMO he is far behind SRT when it comes to playing spin. SRT dominated best of the spinners, perhaps except Murali post 2000. The spinners that IVAR dominated would have got butchered by today's batsmen, and due to flatter tracks.

  7. #757
    Not Terrible Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    He's definitely not ordinary, but he's not a big wicket-taker at all. You certainly wouldn't expect him to have the wood on Brian Lara in any case.
    Big wicket taker when batsman go after him for the most part.

    He did only dismiss Lara once in 15 meetings though (though Lara may not have always batted against Vettori in that time 1 in 15 matches is still hardly the wood on anyone)
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  8. #758
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Big wicket taker when batsman go after him for the most part.

    He did only dismiss Lara once in 15 meetings though (though Lara may not have always batted against Vettori in that time 1 in 15 matches is still hardly the wood on anyone)
    Dismissed him 3/12 innings in Tests compared to Chandra dismissing Viv in 4/14.

    My point was, if you looked at Lara's record against Vettori you'd never guess him to pummel Murali or Warne had he not done it. Migara's argument is based on 4 away tests in Viv's debut series against Chandra.

  9. #759
    Not Terrible Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Dismissed him 3/12 innings in Tests compared to Chandra dismissing Viv in 4/14.

    My point was, if you looked at Lara's record against Vettori you'd never guess him to pummel Murali or Warne had he not done it. Migara's argument is based on 4 away tests in Viv's debut series against Chandra.
    Lara 24 (20) c Nash b Vettori (WI 336-4)
    Lara 67 (166) b Vettori (WI 129-4 following NZ 518-9d, WI to be 179 ao)
    Lara 28 (74) v Vettori (WI 65-2 on a raging turner WI to be 107 ao Vettori to get 4-27)

    Lara got out in that first dismissal attacking Vettori, the second was when WI were in dire straights and he'd been batting for a long long time and the third when conditions suited spin. Don't really see too much evidence of Vettori having been that effective against Lara.

  10. #760
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Lara 24 (20) c Nash b Vettori (WI 336-4)
    Lara 67 (166) b Vettori (WI 129-4 following NZ 518-9d, WI to be 179 ao)
    Lara 28 (74) v Vettori (WI 65-2 on a raging turner WI to be 107 ao Vettori to get 4-27)

    Lara got out in that first dismissal attacking Vettori, the second was when WI were in dire straights and he'd been batting for a long long time and the third when conditions suited spin. Don't really see too much evidence of Vettori having been that effective against Lara.
    I don't think Vettori was overly effective. I think Lara was nowhere near as ruthless, however. The point was, even in comparison, Viv got out about the same proportion of times against Chandra, yet averages much higher (55) in attacks with him and is being classed as some sort of failure. Lara didn't average anywhere near that high in attacks against Vettori with about the same proportion of wickets being taken by the bowler.

    Ironically, if you look at Lara's record against attacks with other spinners not named Warne or Murali it's not that great. Against Harbhajan and Kumble I believe he never really got on top. Played Saqlain and was out in both innings for cheap scores. Averages 26 in 7 matches against Giles who got him 3 times. For someone who is talked about as the greatest player of spin...well.
    Last edited by Ikki; 04-04-2010 at 02:40 AM.

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Sorry, you are pathetic. Any Tom, Dick or Harry could edit WIKI. I've asked for concrete evidence. You failed. It's an EPIC FAIL. You talk about such a delivery, in a televised match, but could not find the clip. I am LMAO.
    Sorry but you are even more pathetic. You are probably ignorant of the fact that WIKI has various ‘designations’ for editors with valid accounts and good profiles who actually are “administrators”, “rollbackers” etc. They ensure that claims are backed up and that the articles supporting them are “reliable sources”. Feel sad to see you like this. You don’t want to believe this from one of the most reputed newspapers of South Asia or also this But how you cannot believe this which is an extract by well known and respected former cricketers like Ian Chappell and Ashley Mallett is beyond me. BUT than again who cares whether you accept or not? For me and countless others this is sufficient.

    Your logic viz heights of Thomson and Shoaib is laughable. Shoaib is short?! He is 6 feet tall …. SIX. Thomson was NOT taller than that for sure. It is PACE and NOT BOUNCE that will keep a ball from going on and on (to hit the sightscreen as in this case). True you need some bounce (vertical effect) but the pace (horizontal component) has to be SO high that the ball would travel as much as it could before the gravitational pull would bring it down to touch the ground at its usual rate of around 9.8 m/secsq. The ball is always coming down at that rate. To hit the SS before the bounce the ball has to be FAST ENOUGH.

    By your logic Garner, Van Der Bijl, Willis and Ambrose should have hit the SS more often than anybody else. They were never even remotely close. Guys like Kortright, Tyson, Gilchrist and Thomson were the people who did it for sure as there are reliable records. The sightscreens were also farther down back in the 70s and 80s (pre-ropes). AND YET Chappell and Mallett say so in a book co-written by them. FACT is NONE of the quicks of the 90s/00s came remotely, remotely, remotely close to doing what those four guys at the least did more than once.

  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Once again that's your opinion and you are judging by camera angles. Sorry, unless you show me with concrete graphical evidence that WK for Thomson was much far back (at least 25% more, considering Akthar was shorter and got less bounce) than for Akthar, you are talking rubbish.
    I am NOT assuming here. I KNOW that for Thomson and for Lillee as well the WK (Rodney Marsh) used to stand 30 to 40 meters behind the stumps. I will be back with the proof later this week. I READ so. Unless you want to say that I am lying. If you watch YT vids from the 70s and early 80s till 83/84 you will not see any inside circle. You FAILED to read what I had written that it was only in 83/84 that the circle was first drawn. I will try to locate the source though no sure when I can be back with it.

  13. #763
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    YouTube - Dennis Lillee: 8-29 against World 11

    Sobers says here that when Lillee was bowling Marsh was about 25 yards back. Since Thomson was faster it is logical to assume he'd be even further back. Of course, yards are shorter than metres.
    Last edited by Ikki; 04-04-2010 at 06:54 AM.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Assumptions, Assumptions and Asumptions. Pascoe and Gilmour does not remotely close to Lee / Tait / Akthar on tape.

    But were umpteen times better bowlers than Gilmopur, Pascoe, Willis, Thomson etc in ODIs. You are talking of speed, I am speaking about quality. If a 75mph bowler averages 15 with the ball, he'll be comfortably better than any 100mph bowler in the history of the game.

    The avg, SR, ER has to be standardized, as I did for SRT and IVAR. Then they are miles behind the current bowlers. Now you are the one stated that batting is easy now. So bowlers have suffered, and ER of 4.5 in 1980 is far worse than tha of 2010 as a result. Sorry, you are intellectually dishonest in your argument.
    Ha from a guy who cannot even recognize Pascoe or Gilmour on sight let alone have watched them in action.

    Len Pascoe Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER < 3 and a SR of 53 and Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 4 and a SR < 30

    Gary Gilmour Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER of 3 and a SR of 49 and Averaged 10 in ODIs with a ER of 3 and a SR of 20

    Besides he holds the BEST EVER bowling figures for a single ODI match. An excellent very fast swing bowler (Wayne Prior was another guy AUS had at that time and he was still faster and had some great contests with Richards in the Packer WSC).

    Rodney Hogg Averaged 25 in Tests with a ER of 2.5 and a SR of 58 (excluding West Indies for Richards and Sri Lanka as they were allegedly ‘minnows’)

    And

    he also Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 3.4 and a SR of 34 (excluding WI and SL)

    Bad stats those? On paper these guys had better stats than those of the 90s and 00s. Agreed they played fewer matches and Akram, Donald, McGrath and Shoaib were better over their careers. But you CANNOT diss these guys. They were better than Gillespie, Nitini and many such guys. Remove Richards and one cannot be certain what Pascoe and Hogg would have achieved.

    Like Pascoe, Graham Dilley, Greg Thomas, Garth LeRoux, and others, Hogg rubbed King Richards the wrong way and was savaged thereafter. It is my belief that these are among the guys who could have been all-time greats – they had 95 mph pace, swing, nasty bouncer, great Yorkers, and many other attributes needed of a fast bowler - had it not been largely for Richards ….

    Hogg made the mistake early in his career of hitting Richards on the left cheek on a fast bouncy unpredictable ’79 Adelaide pitch. He was put into the stands next ball and massacred thereafter.

    Richards’ clashes with Pascoe were probably more intriguing than those with Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Hadlee, Willis, Botham, Kapil, Nawaz etc.

    One famous Richards and Pascoe story:-

    On a lightning fast Perth track, Len Pascoe had taken 2 early wickets and was breathing fire, when Viv Richards came in to bat. The first ball was a very quick bouncer which Richards playing as usual without a helmet ducked under. The second too was a bouncer screaming past the nose of Richards which he just managed to sway away from, when Pascoe walked down the pitch and asked " smell the leather Vivi ? "

    The third ball; Richards walked down the wicket as the bowler was bowling and smashed it a few rows into the longon stands. The fourth ball was again a bouncer and Viv disdainfully smashed over squareleg for another six, walked down the track, patted the spot where the ball had pitched, and as he turned back, waved a forefinger at Pascoe, saying " Lennie maan, I'll slice you like butter maan"


    Ian Chappell writes about Richards and Pascoe:-

    Lenny was bowling to Viv, and he's bowled him three bouncers in a row," ``After the third one, Len was walking back past umpire Max O'Connell and Max said, `Len, that'll be enough for this over'. And a voice came from the other end: `Max, please don't stop him.' It was the voice of Viv Richards." Concluded Chappell: ``Intimidation is a two-way street."

    Len Pascoe on his own words: -

    Till the Patil incident I had no qualms over wanting to hit batsmen... After all, if (Sir) Viv Richards kept smashing you, you’d want to break his arm... It’s another matter that I couldn’t inject fear in Viv.

    On the most destructive batsman?

    Viv... He would destroy you mentally, physically and emotionally... Had he still been playing, he would’ve made mincemeat of today’s bowlers.

    On whether, having been in an era when Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thomson ruled, he actually got the recognition he deserved

    I came up in a period when there were many fast bowlers... Lillee, Thommo, Max Walker, Gary Gilmour, Rodney Hogg ....

  15. #765
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYLove78 View Post
    I am NOT assuming here. I KNOW that for Thomson and for Lillee as well the WK (Rodney Marsh) used to stand 30 to 40 meters behind the stumps. I will be back with the proof later this week. I READ so. Unless you want to say that I am lying. If you watch YT vids from the 70s and early 80s till 83/84 you will not see any inside circle. You FAILED to read what I had written that it was only in 83/84 that the circle was first drawn. I will try to locate the source though no sure when I can be back with it.
    Now PROVE that for SHOAIB in full flow, the keeper was around 25m. A can clearly remember fro Mohammed Akram when he played ENG in early or mid 1990s, the WK was between the boundary and the 30yd circle. Going by that Md Akram should be considerably quicker than Thomson. I have asked for PROOF, but you have FAILED to show it. I did not ask for hi-tech things, only two snapshots where for Thomson WK is very much far back than Shoaib. Sorry, you continue to run away from the challenge.

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