Graham Gooch between July 1975 - December 1989?

[SaeedAnwar]

I have a question, was Graham Gooch considered a good batsmen between 1975 - 1989?
because looking at his stats he was only averaging in the 30's with only 8 centuries up until 1989

[Dissector]

Well let's not forget that he faced some outstanding fast bowlers from the West Indies in that period and also Australia in the 81 series. He averaged 47 in 9 tests against the West Indies in 80 and 81, possibly the best performance against their early 80's attack. That alone gives him a claim to cricketing immortality.

[SaeedAnwar]

^ no it doesn't

[Dissector]

Why not? For an opener to average close to 50 against the greatest pace attack of all time is a hell of an achievement.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by SaeedAnwar

I have a question, was Graham Gooch considered a good batsmen between 1975 - 1989?

Irrelevant time period. 1975 was a brief foray, and 1989 was a rank shocker that forced him to completely reconstruct his technique.

The Gooch period that matters is 1978 to 1988. And in that time, yes, he was considered a damn good opener. He averaged 39, and considering the bowling he was mostly opening against, that was a damn good effort.

And his 1990-1993 just topped everything off - he averaged over 60 in that time.

[SaeedAnwar]

^ Graham Gooch is a interesting case, i mean he played for so long 1975 to 1995, but only played 118 tests, i know he was out of the team for 3 years during that time, but still the number of test matches he played seems low to me

[L Trumper]

Originally Posted by SaeedAnwar

^ Graham Gooch is a interesting case, i mean he played for so long 1975 to 1995, but only played 118 tests, i know he was out of the team for 3 years during that time, but still the number of test matches he played seems low to me

He debuted in 75 but started as a regular/often playing from 78 to 82. After ban from 85 to 94/95 season. And he missed summer of 87 if I remembered correctly. That makes about 13 to 14 years of cricket , instead of 20 year span 75 - 95. 13 years in cricket and 118 matches seems okay to me.

Compare him with gower who started in 78 and ended in 92 and played 117 matches.

[zaremba]

Originally Posted by SaeedAnwar

I have a question, was Graham Gooch considered a good batsmen between 1975 - 1989?
because looking at his stats he was only averaging in the 30's with only 8 centuries up until 1989

I remember reading an article at the start of the 1988 series in which a leading West Indian player (Greenidge or Richards IIRC) identified Gooch as the only England batsman that the West Indies "feared". In fact I don't think for a moment that they feared him but it does suggest that they respected him as a player.

Obviously what he later did in 1989/90 and 1991 can only have reinforced that.

[zaremba]

Originally Posted by L Trumper

He debuted in 75 but started as a regular/often playing from 78 to 82. After ban from 85 to 94/95 season. And he missed summer of 87 if I remembered correctly. That makes about 13 to 14 years of cricket , instead of 20 year span 75 - 95. 13 years in cricket and 118 matches seems okay to me.

Compare him with gower who started in 78 and ended in 92 and played 117 matches.

Yes and they played rather fewer Tests per year in those days than they have more recently.

[Richard]

All the same, if Gooch had played solidly 1978-1994/95 (well, actually I wish he hadn't made that last tour with hindsight, because it did him a disservice, so 1994 more like) he could conceivably have threatened Stephen Waugh and done likewise as Allan Border.

[wfdu_ben91]

Those stats before the 1990's make Gooch look very Athurton-esque.

[Richard]

Most people would rate the Gooch of 1978-1988 as a decent bit better than the Atherton of 1990-2000 (their averages, 41 and 39, are similar).

No-one, however, would claim either were supermen. Gooch was only such a thing between 1990 and 1993.

[Dissector]

Originally Posted by Richard

No-one, however, would claim either were supermen. Gooch was only such a thing between 1990 and 1993.

That may be exaggerating a bit. Gooch was exceptional for a period of a year and a bit in 90-91 where he averaged 75 including his triple hundred against India. After that he was fairly uneven and flopped in India in 1993. I was at the stadium when Manoj Prabhakar of all bowlers demolished England's top order including Gooch who was clean bowled.

You could argue that his performances against the West Indies in 80-81 were about as impressive as anything in 90-91. The Indian attack that he demolished in 90 was very poor.

[Richard]

Gooch between 1990 and 1993 smashed runs against all-comers, showing absolutely no bias between good and poor bowling. Yes he did nothing in India in 1992/93 but he essentially played 1 Test in good health - in the Third Test of which you speak he was palpably not well (he'd missed the Second Test and would shortly head home before the tour of Sri Lanka) and his scores of 4 and 8 are not of any importance.

Purely in terms of the context of playing against West Indies, there probably wasn't a massive amount between Gooch's batting in 1980 and 1981 compared to that in 1990 and 1991. But I'd still put the latter ahead and there's absolutely no question whatsoever that in terms of play at large rather than just in isolated series' against West Indies Gooch was in a way, way better place later on.

Gooch even came back and scored 210 (despite being shoved down to three to accommodate Alec Stewart remaining at the top of the order) after opting-out of the West Indies tour of 1994, before having the usual end-of-career comedown which afflicts more players than not.

[Dissector]

In 1992-93 he averaged 44, decent but hardly "superman" stuff. It was only in 90-91 that he was scoring really heavily.