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Thread: ***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You're comparing 90s and early 00s averages to 2003 and beyond where averages have spiked. You can't talk about them as if one being higher than the other is more important.

    Winning makes a lot of difference, it's generally a guide to how good a team are or not.


    So normalise Tendulkar's numbers as well because the fact that during 90s despite him being godly, India used to be mediocre and **** overseas??

  2. #122
    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shankar View Post
    Averages of top order batsmen in the period 90-02 against all sides. Average against Zimbabwe is 44.15.

    Averages of top order batsmen in the period since 2003 against all sides. Average against WI:49.88, Pak:45.94, NZ:45.15, IND:43.15.

    If scores against Zim in the first period have to be removed we'd have remove scores against the above teams in the latter period as well.
    this.

  3. #123
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    My two cents.

    My reasons for choosing SRT over Ponting would be:-

    Lower Limit:-3000 runs.

    In the 1970s the batsmen averaging over 50 are:- Gavaskar, Chappel, Boycott & Richards (Kalicharan and Amiss come close at 49)(Redpath doesn't satisfy 3k run limit)

    In the 1980s the batsmen averaging over 50 are:- Miandad & Border.(Richards comes darn close at 49)(Chappel & Lloyd don't satisfy the 3k run limit)

    In the 1990s the batsmen averaging over 50 are:-Tendulkar, Waugh, Lara & Gooch.(With SRT averaging an outland-ish 58 and Ponting averaging 44)(no 49s or run limit exceptions)

    In the 2000s the Batsmen averaging over 50 are:-Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Hayden, Jayawardene, Sangakkara, Tendulkar, Yousuf, Chanderpaul, Lara, Sehwag, Younis Khan, Inzamam, Samarweera, Hussey & Thorpe. (With Smith, Laxman, Pietersen, Kristen and Clarke coming close at 49)(Waugh, Gambhir and Flower don't satisfy the 3k limit)

    So in the 1970s:-4 batsmen(2 come close)
    1980s:-2 bastmen(1 comes close)
    1990s:-4 batsmen
    2000s:-16 batsmen(5 come close)

    So, I hold Tendulkar in higher regard due to the fact that he blossomed and was the best in a decade with very very few people averaging over 50 in an era of not only with some of the best bowling attacks attacks but also plenty of good ones. However, Ponting despite all his greatness blossomed in a decade where there have been plenty of others who have also averaged close to him.

    It is purely my opinion that SRT is slightly but definitely better than Ponting, if people think otherwise I can understand why, as Ponting is one of my most favourite players ever and at his best a massive massive run-scorer.

  4. #124
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    Working further on the idea given by Shankar, I decided to do a small analysis.

    Since everything in cricket is relative, I decided to compare both batsmen's averages against individual opposition with what top order batsmen of top 8 test nations overall averaged against them in the respective periods.

    Then I assigned a new average by adjusted player average with the Top6 average. Ie, if player A averages 50 against an opposition against whom top order batsmen of the same period average 40, then adjusted average would be 50/40 * 50 = 62.5 thus rewarding them for outperforming other batsmen of the same period.

    The results are interesting:

    Sachin Tendulkar

    Code:
    Opposition	Span  		Mat  	 Avg	 Runs   Top6Avg AdjAvg	AdjRuns
    
    v Australia 	1991-2008 	29	 56.08 	 2,748 	33.58	 93.66 	 4,589 
    v Bangladesh 	2000-2010 	 7	136.66 	   820 	61.38	304.27 	 1,826 
    v England 	1990-2008 	24	 61.42 	 2,150 	40.08	 94.12 	 3,294 
    v New Zealand 	1990-2009 	19	 52.07 	 1,406 	42.77	 63.39 	 1,712 
    v Pakistan 	1989-2007 	18	 42.28 	 1,057 	39.08	 45.74 	 1,144 
    v South Africa 	1992-2010 	22	 38.24 	 1,415 	35.19	 41.55 	 1,538 
    v Sri Lanka 	1990-2009 	22	 57.32 	 1,605 	40.06	 82.02 	 2,296 
    v West Indies 	1994-2002 	16	 57.73 	 1,328 	36.61	 91.03 	 2,094 
    v Zimbabwe 	1992-2002 	 9	 76.50 	   918 	44.15	132.55 	 1,591 
    
    Overall Total			 	 55.57	13,447 		 82.99	20,084
    Ricky Ponting

    Code:
    Team		Span  		Mat  	 Avg   	 Runs    Top6Avg AdjAvg  AdjRuns 
    v Bangladesh 	2003-2006 	 4	 65.00 	   260 	 65.46 	 64.54 	   258 
    v England 	1997-2009 	31	 48.22 	 2,363 	 39.26 	 59.22 	 2,902 
    v ICC World XI 	2005-2005 	 1	 50.00 	   100 	 37.58 	 66.52 	   133 
    v India 	1996-2008 	23	 47.02 	 1,787 	 42.14 	 52.47 	 1,994 
    v New Zealand 	1997-2010 	15	 57.47 	   977 	 43.24 	 76.38 	 1,299 
    v Pakistan 	1998-2010 	13	 75.73 	 1,439 	 43.15 	132.91 	 2,525 
    v South Africa 	1997-2009 	21	 56.38 	 2,030 	 36.07 	 88.13 	 3,173 
    v Sri Lanka 	1995-2007 	12	 50.05 	   851 	 38.82 	 64.53 	 1,097 
    v West Indies 	1996-2009 	21	 59.06 	 1,831 	 43.91 	 79.44 	 2,463 
    v Zimbabwe 	1999-2003 	 3	 96.66 	   290 	 51.59 	181.10 	   543 
    
    Overall Total				 55.22 	11,928 	 	75.87 	16,387
    While Ponting has been exceptional, Tendulkar has just outclassed him in relation to their peers.


  5. #125
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    That's statistically abusive on so many levels...
    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    The Filth have comfortably the better bowling. But the Gash have the batting. Might be quite good to watch.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    That's statistically abusive on so many levels...
    That helps.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    That's statistically abusive on so many levels...
    But thats how you prove points isnt it.

  8. #128
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Sir Alex, genuine question. Do you feel intellectually stimulated and/or have fun when you argue with Ikkie about Tendulkar vs. Ponting?

    I can understand why you initially did it, but to still keep doing it. Do you still enjoy it, or find it helps your knowledge about cricket?

    Same with Ikki I suppose.

    I actually just can't see how any rational person would want to still keep arguing it. Sure before it had become so common it was a relatively interesting debate, as was Lara vs. Sachin and Dravid vs. Ponting (back in 2003/4 prior to Ponting passing him).

    But eventually... surely it gets tiring arguing with the same person?
    "I am very happy and it will allow me to have lot more rice."

    Eoin Morgan on being given a rice cooker for being Man of the Match in a Dhaka Premier Division game.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Sir Alex, genuine question. Do you feel intellectually stimulated and/or have fun when you argue with Ikkie about Tendulkar vs. Ponting?

    I can understand why you initially did it, but to still keep doing it. Do you still enjoy it, or find it helps your knowledge about cricket?

    Same with Ikki I suppose.

    I actually just can't see how any rational person would want to still keep arguing it. Sure before it had become so common it was a relatively interesting debate, as was Lara vs. Sachin and Dravid vs. Ponting (back in 2003/4 prior to Ponting passing him).

    But eventually... surely it gets tiring arguing with the same person?

    The snide aside,

    I love stats, I love playing with numbers. Besides happened to have some free time also.

    Further both these players are very much active and kicking, so a Tendulkar vs Ponting 2004 will never make any sense in 2010. Does it?

    Further it has made me appreciate the greatness of these players in so different levels. Actually I am not discovering their brilliance in their numbers, but discovering their brilliance through their numbers as well.

  10. #130
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Why did you have to break it down by team? What can that possibly add? There's no valid statistical reason to do so whatsoever. Why do you increase batsmen's averages by a factor of the overall average rather than the difference between the number of runs scored? That merely rewards annihilating one team while being below-average against another as opposed to being consistently above-average against all teams. Why is that inherently better? Especially considering the most annihilated team here is Bangladesh. And why do you use only top six batsmen?

    Does it have anything to do with the fact that, if you use all batsmen and simply use overall aggregates, Ponting's "adjusted" average is (55/31)*55=97.5 to Tendulkar's 55/31*55=97.5? Batsmen average 0.3 runs less over the duration of Tendulkar's career than they do over the duration of Ponting's.

    Even if you use top six batsmen, they average 38.43 over Tendulkar's career and 38.77 over the course of Ponting's. The difference is miniscule.

    I don't even care who's better. I just rather like stats, because they're really quite useful, and it annoys me when people so blatantly rape them in an attempt to "prove" their point.
    Last edited by Uppercut; 29-03-2010 at 03:41 AM.

  11. #131
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Alex View Post
    SA was clearly Ponting's comfort zone. And Australia no doubts about it. Check hsi away/homeaverages.
    It was his comfort zone to play in the most pace-friendly pitches against the best two pace bowling combo in his time? You're ridiculous.

    Now we are talking one innings! Tendulkar made centuries against every great bowler he's faced.
    It doesn't matter. Tendulkar could make 1 century against x and y, but having played 10 times still come out with a poor average. That's no success story.

    We are talking about test cricket at McG's and Warne's peak dude not schoolcricket
    You're talking about Sheffield Shield in the 90s. Most of the teams in that domestic competition would be stronger than half the teams in the Test circuit.

    Yet can't seem to score anything against the fastest bowler he had to face since Shoiab Akhtar (Steyn)
    Steyn himself is no great bowler. It's early to compare him to greats like McGrath, Donald, Pollock, Waqar, etc.

    You are creating goalposts. REPEAT, Tendulkar had his worst years in the 2000s, so automatically his average also got affected in the 2000s. It says nothing conclusive other than that.
    Of course he had his worst years in the 00s, that's the whole point. If it was so easy between eras then it's down to Tendulkar's own failings.

    If a batsman averages 60 against Australia for 10 tests...that deserves praise. If he averages 10 against Bangladesh for 10 tests...that deserves equal critique. Not excuses.

    They easily are. I infact supported that with their career averages in another thread. CBA to find it now.
    You didn't. Your arguments and stats are increasingly shambolic and I am wondering why I don't have you on ignore to be honest. You bait me well with your nonsense but I don't have the time or the energy to debunk it in every thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    doesnt matter. i can always say sachin was in **** house form in the other series and any bowler could get him out. all that is irrelevant even though it is true that sachin fell 4 out of 6 times in those bad tests to bowlers not named mcgrath.

    in 6 out of 9 tests, in two full series sachin and mcgrath played against each other, sachin did well. and that is good enough. Whenever they played in a full series, sachin never failed.
    I understand your point and TBF looking at it like that I retract from the position that McGrath got ahead of him the way I would have thought he had. Generally, I can't remember McGrath being troubled by Tendulkar much and it was more him scoring off the others. However, that's all you need to do in many ways and is success in itself.

    However, in the end, if you want to break it down at it's finest it's still 36.77 in 9 tests, and getting your wicket taken by the same bowler 1/3 innings is not particularly strong. I wouldn't call that particularly good. It's obviously a mixed bag though. I dunno, take from it what you will.
    Last edited by Ikki; 29-03-2010 at 04:32 AM.
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  12. #132
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Alex View Post
    The snide aside,

    I love stats, I love playing with numbers. Besides happened to have some free time also.

    Further both these players are very much active and kicking, so a Tendulkar vs Ponting 2004 will never make any sense in 2010. Does it?

    Further it has made me appreciate the greatness of these players in so different levels. Actually I am not discovering their brilliance in their numbers, but discovering their brilliance through their numbers as well.
    Snide? If that's a snide I'm not sure what you think of what other posters say at you

  13. #133
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post

    I understand your point and TBF looking at it like that I retract from the position that McGrath got ahead of him the way I would have thought he had.
    cool.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post

    You didn't. Your arguments and stats are increasingly shambolic and I am wondering why I don't have you on ignore to be honest. You bait me well with your nonsense but I don't have the time or the energy to debunk it in every thread.


    CBA.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Snide? If that's a snide I'm not sure what you think of what other posters say at you
    There are some posters whom I take seriously and some I do not here. You belong to the former.

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