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Thread: ***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

  1. #136
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Not naming names here, but here's how it goes:

    "I think X is better than Y because of Z"

    "Really, well I disagree, I think Y is better than X because of A".

    "Hmm, but what about B, C or D?"

    "No, I don't think they are that important".

    "Ok, well we shan't be convincing each other, let's agree to disagree and let's move on shall we?"

    "Yes.. Let's"


    Last edited by Burgey; 29-03-2010 at 04:53 AM.
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  2. #137
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shankar View Post
    Averages of top order batsmen in the period 90-02 against all sides. Average against Zimbabwe is 44.15.

    Averages of top order batsmen in the period since 2003 against all sides. Average against WI:49.88, Pak:45.94, NZ:45.15, IND:43.15.

    If scores against Zim in the first period have to be removed we'd have remove scores against the above teams in the latter period as well.
    I took a closer look at that list. In the second list, 2003 beyond, Zimbabwe herself is the highest - even worse than Bangladesh. 59.61 which is a mile worst than the others.

    In many ways you've proven my point for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by satyam View Post
    And why should runs scored against Zim in 1990-2002 removed. Heath streak was a much better bowler than any pacer India, WI, NZ have at present.
    But India had a better attack in whole. For example, in the 90s, India had arguably the best home attack in the world. Yes, as good, if not better, than Wasim/Waqar, McGrath/Warne, Walsh/Ambrose and Donald/Pollock.

    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Ikki, don't you think you are oversimplifying things by just looking at the number of Test wins Bangladesh has had? It's possible that they bowled well and still lost. I don't know how to look up the stats for your 2nd point, but that is not relevant to the point I am making, which is that in the specific situation that Sachin, Gilly, Ponting, Inzy or whoever found themselves in, scoring runs was tough and extremely crucial.
    TBF, there are many counters to that. Bangladesh may look well in a Test or two, and still lose. Since they've never won, it's inarguable that they're a minnow. For the sake of ease I say remove them in general. It would get tedious if we started debating on an innings by innings basis. Furthermore, it would still be countered by the many times the team was clearly dross.

    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    TBF, if you strongly make the argument that run-scoring is so much easier in this decade, then you also have to normalize Ponting's numbers as he has scored the vast majority of his runs in the '00s. That would likely bring him down quite a bit in comparison to Tendulkar. Personally, I think the relative ease of run-scoring in this decade compared to the '90s is a bit overstated.
    Ironically, I am making the argument that the 00s was not that much easier to score runs in. I am arguing that it generally occurred more. Does that necessarily mean it it was easier to do? Not really. I think batting approaches have changed and in general there are more quality batsmen as the test sides between 1st and 5th ranked teams have quality in them. These are bound to raise the more runs being scored.

    Although pitches have been getting flatter, ironically, wicket-taking is happening more and faster. So it's not about being easier or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by shankar View Post
    So the explanation for the increase in averages against all teams by all teams is that all the batsmen around the world suddenly improved. That's quite an improbable theory. A much better explanation is the flattening of pitches as a standard around the world which does have quite a bit of support.

    The question is whether runs vs Zim 90-02 should be removed from the stats. If the answer is yes logic dictates that runs vs WI,Pak,NZ,Ind post 2003 should also be removed as they were equally easy.
    Not that they suddenly improved, although many notable batsmen had their peaks in this period (as you'd expect them to at their respective ages) but that batting has changed. Batsmen strike faster and so do bowlers. More runs are made in less time and overall that will push averages up without getting into inferiority or not.

    The reason they should be removed are twofold. One, they were a very weak team that managed a couple notable feats but nothing else - and that only in a small period. Two, even in terms of player v player comparison; one batsman has played them a heck of a lot more times than the other batsman.

    Thirdly, and maybe more importantly, even keeping all of Zimbabwe's stats...Ponting's average is still higher when you remove the undoubtedly poor Bangladesh. Which was my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Sir Alex, genuine question. Do you feel intellectually stimulated and/or have fun when you argue with Ikkie about Tendulkar vs. Ponting?

    I can understand why you initially did it, but to still keep doing it. Do you still enjoy it, or find it helps your knowledge about cricket?

    Same with Ikki I suppose.

    I actually just can't see how any rational person would want to still keep arguing it. Sure before it had become so common it was a relatively interesting debate, as was Lara vs. Sachin and Dravid vs. Ponting (back in 2003/4 prior to Ponting passing him).

    But eventually... surely it gets tiring arguing with the same person?
    In general, I am fine with arguing in player v player threads. Often you learn something and you make a mental note and adjust your opinion. Other times, you teach someone else something and they make a mental note and adjust their opinion. Sometimes pride means not admitting it in that thread, but generally, I think it makes everyone smarter.

    Then there are times when you argue with people like Sir Alex...and you want to club yourself for being stupid enough to get into a debate. No, I don't enjoy it and am trying to curb my bad habit of arguing with trolls.
    Last edited by Ikki; 29-03-2010 at 04:57 AM.
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  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Why did you have to break it down by team? What can that possibly add? There's no valid statistical reason to do so whatsoever. Why do you increase batsmen's averages by a factor of the overall average rather than the difference between the number of runs scored? That merely rewards annihilating one team while being below-average against another as opposed to being consistently above-average against all teams. Why is that inherently better? Especially considering the most annihilated team here is Bangladesh. And why do you use only top six batsmen?

    Does it have anything to do with the fact that, if you use all batsmen and simply use overall aggregates, Ponting's "adjusted" average is (55/31)*55=97.5 to Tendulkar's 55/31*55=97.5? Batsmen average 0.3 runs less over the duration of Tendulkar's career than they do over the duration of Ponting's.

    Even if you use top six batsmen, they average 38.43 over Tendulkar's career and 38.77 over the course of Ponting's. The difference is miniscule.

    I don't even care who's better. I just rather like stats, because they're really quite useful, and it annoys me when people so blatantly rape them in an attempt to "prove" their point.
    1. Because scoring runs against Australia is generally considered to be difficult than against Bangladesh?

    2. Reason for top 6 is that generally teams consider top 6 as their "batsmen", 1 wicketkeeper and 4 bowlers?

    3. You may term it rape, I prefer the term 'analysis'.

  4. #139
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    Bah NWI.
    Last edited by Sir Alex; 29-03-2010 at 05:00 AM.


  5. #140
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    FMD, someone re-open the "Atmosphere in CC" thread again and let the rest of us poor bastards vent please.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You can't conclude that Tendulkar did in a period where it was harder because the main difference between Ponting and Tendulkar in the 90s is that Tendulkar smashed on the weak teams too...whereas Ponting did well against the BEST teams and didn't make runs against the WORST teams. That's the irony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post

    If a batsman averages 60 against Australia for 10 tests...that deserves praise. If he averages 10 against Bangladesh for 10 tests...that deserves equal critique. Not excuses.
    Ikki at his very best.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Alex View Post
    You may term it rape, I prefer the term 'analysis'.

    Good line that, I might use it when I appear in court next Thursday.

  8. #143
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Alex View Post
    Yeah stop arguing with yourself for starters

    And BTW, Zimbabwe pre 2003 and post 2003 were like chalk and cheese.
    So were WIndies, one of the teams you're referring to. Being a minnow is relative, not absolute. Who knows just how much worse Zimbabwe would have become had they played the rest of the era?

    If you're going to compare Zimbabwe till 02 then compare them with the teams that were there until 02.

    It shouldn't even need arguing. The suggestion that Zimbabwe until 02 was as good as India post 03 is laughable - the difference between averages is 1 run (44.15 vs 43.16). One was the worst team in Test cricket, the other became the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avada Kedavra View Post
    Ikki at his very best.
    I'm struggling to see where you have a point. Of course, I am not holding my breath from past experiences.
    Last edited by Ikki; 29-03-2010 at 05:04 AM.

  9. #144
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    Good line that, I might use it when I appear in court next Thursday.
    $400 per hour plus GST - mates' rates - I'm yours. If there's too much back and forth between counsel and the bench, we'll tell them to take it to this thread and STFU.

  10. #145
    International Coach GotSpin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Not naming names here, but here's how it goes:

    "I think X is better than Y because of Z"

    "Really, well I disagree, I think Y is better than X because of A".

    "Hmm, but what about B, C or D?"

    "No, I don't think they are that important".

    "Ok, well we shan't be convincing each other, let's agree to disagree and let's move on shall we?"

    "Yes.. Let's"


    you communist. LET THE MASSES REIGN
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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    So were WIndies, one of the teams you're referring to. Being a minnow is relative, not absolute. Who knows just how much worse Zimbabwe would have become had they played the rest of the era?

    If you're going to compare Zimbabwe till 02 then compare them with the teams that were there until 02.
    So from 44.15 to nearly 60 in a matter of 2 years is "strictly" normal for you? How many Zimbabweans who played in 2002 against Tendulkar played in post 2003?

    Zimbabwe may nor may not have become dire. That's not the point. Point is they were better than today's Windies or New Zealand atleast statistically. And had they possessed the same set of players, there is noway you can say Zimbabwe would be averaging 60 per wicket as they are now.

    It shouldn't even need arguing. The suggestion that Zimbabwe until 02 was as good as India post 03 is laughable - the difference between averages is 1 run (44.15 vs 43.16). One was the worst team in Test cricket, the other became the best.
    The fact is that Indian bowlers bleed about the same amount of runs per wicket as Zimbabwe used to till 2002. Hence roughly, they possessed the same attacks.

    Makes some sense as well. India in all it's history has not had a bowler, spin or fast, who averaged what Heath Streak did. In other words, you are cruelly underrating the Zimbabweans pre 2002.

  12. #147
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    And Comparing west indies with zim is futile. One was a steady and natural decline, while the other a forced one. It makes sense to exclude win stats when they played against ban last year. Similarly it makes sense to exclude zim stats post 03 and not before.

  13. #148
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Alex View Post
    1. Because scoring runs against Australia is generally considered to be difficult than against Bangladesh?

    2. Reason for top 6 is that generally teams consider top 6 as their "batsmen", 1 wicketkeeper and 4 bowlers?

    3. You may term it rape, I prefer the term 'analysis'.
    Your adjusted averages don't weight runs according to quality of opposition, so your first point is irrelevant, and teams generally picking six batsmen doesn't even begin to explain why using the top six gives you a more reliable figure than using the entire team. You haven't answered any of my questions, I see no statistically sound reason for doing what you just did.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    The Filth have comfortably the better bowling. But the Gash have the batting. Might be quite good to watch.

  14. #149
    RTDAS pasag's Avatar
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    Problem is when it moves from a discussion to each trying to "pwn" the other.
    Rest In Peace Craigos
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  15. #150
    International Coach GotSpin's Avatar
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    Pasag is wrong based on the statements and facts provided by numerous posters in this thread who are attempting to ascertain who the better player is. i win. this is easy

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