Who Is The Better Captain? Smith or Ponting?

[Uppercut]

Has to be Smith, surely. Don't remember him ever randomly deciding to bowl part-timers when a crucial game and series hung in the balance.

Rate Ponting higher as an ODI captain, but he does have a few more ridiculous boobs to point to. I think he's underrated though. Captains don't get enough credit for doing the obvious thing. When you open with a part-time spinner and he takes a wicket you're labelled a genius, when you open with a fast bowler and he takes five wickets no one even mentions it.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Then again, giving the new ball to a fast bowler is firmly inside the box. Giving it to anyone else is outside it. Doing the obvious things right makes you a good captain, but instinctively doing the things that are far from obvious, and doing them right, makes you a great captain.

 

[Jono]

Yeah Smith for me. Has his moments of crud, but generally is a good strategic captain. I do believe Boucher is in his ear a bit which helps though.

I dunno, Ponting is a weird one. Everytime I think he's coming around and he's not as bad as we make him out to be, he really does something dumb as ****. Ashes 05 choosing to bowl and some field settings, then he improved a lot and didn't make too many gastly errors. Then he had a period of 3 months where he was woeful in India 2008 and ****ed up bad against South Africa at the MCG when Steyn and Duminy were going. Sure Duminy played a fine knock but his fields for Steyn were a sign of "I don't trust my bowlers at all."

Also, Ponting said he has the best pace resources in the world recently, with regards to the earlier debate.

Finally, both are ****in great leaders of men. Respect them highly with how they manage their players.

Both know how to lead from the front with the bat as well.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Sure but they were not exactly spring chickens in debuting at 27 and 29. So they have a bit of experience under their belt to deal with pressure. Sure they can struggle early on in their debuts or earlier games but they didn't look as good as what they're being made to be when they were up against a class batting line-up.

On the contrary, Doug Bollinger has looked quite excellent and I'd have Peter Siddle on the same level as Morne Morkel currently. And, despite the age of some, I think it's hard to argue that the other fast bowlers around the country - McKay, Harris, et al - aren't better than the South African reserves. Even Parnell, for all his promise, is yet to establish himself as a good FC bowler, let alone Test class.

I mean, Steyn is by far the best fast bowler from either country atm, but outside of him, Australia wins the race for mine. By the way, I brought this up as a compliment to Smith, before anyone accuses me of anti-SA bias. Certainly I'm never biased toward Australia.

 

[Uppercut]

Then again, giving the new ball to a fast bowler is firmly inside the box. Giving it to anyone else is outside it. Doing the obvious things right makes you a good captain, but instinctively doing the things that are far from obvious, and doing them right, makes you a great captain.

Well, we don't really know whether you're doing them right, because we only see half of the conclusion. If the fast bowler was going to take five wickets but you threw it to the spinner who took one, you'll get praised for it, because we'll never know what would have happened otherwise. The orthodox captain who throws it to the fast bowler has much greater success, but his captaincy doesn't get mentioned.

 

[SeamUp]

On the contrary, Doug Bollinger has looked quite excellent and I'd have Peter Siddle on the same level as Morne Morkel currently. And, despite the age of some, I think it's hard to argue that the other fast bowlers around the country - McKay, Harris, et al - aren't better than the South African reserves. Even Parnell, for all his promise, is yet to establish himself as a good FC bowler, let alone Test class.

I mean, Steyn is by far the best fast bowler from either country atm, but outside of him, Australia wins the race for mine. By the way, I brought this up as a compliment to Smith, before anyone accuses me of anti-SA bias. Certainly I'm never biased toward Australia.

I'm not going to argue with that. But in all honesty I like our attack and wouldn't want any of Australias bowlers in place of our current 3. All 3 are varying types Steyn(fast skiddy and swings it), M.Morkel (Fast and extracts bounce), Parnell (X-factor produces at the top level under pressure and left-arm and swings it). I don't believe Parnell or M.Morkel have hit their peak yet.

We still have Ntini who is a fighter and never will give up. De Wet comes in and on debut rocks the English ship on a docile pitch. We also have Theron and one or 2 others in the wings who haven't been required yet. Theron in warm-up games to the Champs trophy bowled well against New Zealand and Pakistan. Bowled ok against Engand when they were here in a tour game and did extremely well in the emerging tournament and outbowls Ntini, Tsotosbe and Parnell when they play for the same franchise.

On the other hand I do appreciate Australia have Johnson, Siddle and Hilenhaus but to me Bollinger, Harris and McKay need to prove themselves against the top nations still as well. As both Bollinger and Harris struggled against us when we toured there last summer.

 

[Jono]

You wouldn't take Mitch Johnson ahead of Parnell?

You're crazy!

 

[SeamUp]

Mitchell Johnson is the 3rd best fast bowler in the world at the moment probably. Sure he is a good bowler but I believe Parnell has a big future ahead of him.

He is still only kid at 20 with not a lot of experience and there is a lot to work with. Watch this space.

Mitch against us was incredible but has been disappoting this summer and the Ashes and it may be due to the inconsistancies of his action. He is better than what he is bowling at the moment.

 

[SeamUp]

You wouldn't take Mitch Johnson ahead of Parnell?

You're crazy!

Did you see Parnells spell in the last test around the wicket to Tendulkar. Even troubled the master with the reverse swing where he got dropped and edged a couple of 4's through the slips. Let alone the bouncer on a dead pitch that woke Sachin up and made him look akward.

Don't forget it was only 2nd test at 20 and playing the 1st time in India.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Let's take Steyn and Johnson out of the picture, as the best fast bowler for each respective side. Siddle and Hilfenhaus are, at least, on par with Morkel. After Morkel you talk about Parnell, but he's a long, long way from establishing himself as a good Test bowler, let alone an outstanding one. Then Bollinger has bowled particularly beautifully this summer. And West Indies and Pakistan may not be particularly good teams, but guys like Yousuf, Gayle, Sarwan and Chanderpaul are good batsmen, and he's looked good against most of that lot.

For South Africa, outside of Steyn and an improving Morkel, there's Ntini and de Wet who you mentioned. Ntini looks to be a spent force. While he's one of my favourite cricketers, and I will never doubt his heart, fitness and enthusiasm, I haven't seen anything from him for a long time now to suggest that he will ever be Test class again. My concern regarding de Wet is largely down to fitness. It's very unlikely, given his history, that he will remain fit enough to have a proper Test career. As for Theron, is that Juan? If he's related to Charlize, I'd back him to do well.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Did you see Parnells spell in the last test around the wicket to Tendulkar. Even troubled the master with the reverse swing where he got dropped and edged a couple of 4's through the slips. Let alone the bouncer on a dead pitch that woke Sachin up and made him look akward.

Don't forget it was only 2nd test at 20 and playing the 1st time in India.

I've seen Daren Powell trouble very good batsmen in isolated spells. But he's a terrible bowler. A bit of an extreme example, I know, but the point being that lesser bowlers have bowled exceptional spells before.

Another example is Pedro Collins, who troubled Tendulkar consistently throughout a series in the West Indies a few years back. Generally that was bowling around the wicket too. Now if you'd take Parnell ahead of Johnson, you must rate him ahead of Collins. And Collins had Tendulkar all over the place. It also suggests that Tendulkar has some problems against left-armers around the wicket in general.

Moral of the story being that we should wait to see, not presuming anything will unfold. Fact is that Johnson has done a whole lot more to prove that he's up to Test cricket. Parnell still hasn't proven he's up to FC cricket.

 

[SeamUp]

Let's take Steyn and Johnson out of the picture, as the best fast bowler for each respective side. Siddle and Hilfenhaus are, at least, on par with Morkel. After Morkel you talk about Parnell, but he's a long, long way from establishing himself as a good Test bowler, let alone an outstanding one. Then Bollinger has bowled particularly beautifully this summer. And West Indies and Pakistan may not be particularly good teams, but guys like Yousuf, Gayle, Sarwan and Chanderpaul are good batsmen, and he's looked good against most of that lot.

For South Africa, outside of Steyn and an improving Morkel, there's Ntini and de Wet who you mentioned. Ntini looks to be a spent force. While he's one of my favourite cricketers, and I will never doubt his heart, fitness and enthusiasm, I haven't seen anything from him for a long time now to suggest that he will ever be Test class again. My concern regarding de Wet is largely down to fitness. It's very unlikely, given his history, that he will remain fit enough to have a proper Test career. As for Theron, is that Juan? If he's related to Charlize, I'd back him to do well.

As I have said in a previous post, I'm not denying they have 6 bowlers there but we're not far off at the same time. Theres nothing great that distinguishes Australia from us in quality or depth upper quality.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

As I have said in a previous post, I'm not denying they have 6 bowlers there but we're not far off at the same time. Theres nothing great that distinguishes Australia from us in quality or depth upper quality.

But that's exactly where we differ in opinion. There's a lot more evidence of depth and quality in the Australia pace bowling department than in South Africa's. Parnell is hugely unproven in all forms of the game, Morkel is only just starting to look like an international bowler, and is still a distance from being one. There are a lot more signs of quality to the Australians thus far. I'd love to see that change though, as I'll always sooner support South Africa than Australia.

 

[marc71178]

As I have said in a previous post, I'm not denying they have 6 bowlers there but we're not far off at the same time. Theres nothing great that distinguishes Australia from us in quality or depth upper quality.

Of course there isn't if you overstate the ability of the South Africans whilst understating the Australians at the same time.

 

[SeamUp]

I've seen Daren Powell trouble very good batsmen in isolated spells. But he's a terrible bowler. A bit of an extreme example, I know, but the point being that lesser bowlers have bowled exceptional spells before.

Another example is Pedro Collins, who troubled Tendulkar consistently throughout a series in the West Indies a few years back. Generally that was bowling around the wicket too. Now if you'd take Parnell ahead of Johnson, you must rate him ahead of Collins. And Collins had Tendulkar all over the place. It also suggests that Tendulkar has some problems against left-armers around the wicket in general.

Moral of the story being that we should wait to see, not presuming anything will unfold. Fact is that Johnson has done a whole lot more to prove that he's up to Test cricket. Parnell still hasn't proven he's up to FC cricket.

You're talking as if he bowled badly in the last test and his international career. Got 5 wickets at 24's in his 2 tests and has proved he can handle pressure on the big stage averaging 21 in ODI's. Bowled well in both tests.

If you're comparing Parnell to P.Collins/Powell because they bowled rare dangerous spells then you obviously haven't seen enough of Parnell.

If you watch enough of his cricket you can see has a lot of ability to reach a brilliant peak in his career. He has bowled many a dangerous spell. Not just spells that are going to be one offs. He has done it consistently in his short career which suggests a lot of ability.

At 20 he has been told to run in and bowl fast and try take wickets. Thats what he does..he is a wicket-taker. He can get hit for 4,4,4 but because he has the right attitude he can bowl you a 4th ball to get you out.

I think thats pretty good for a 20 year old.

 

[SeamUp]

Of course there isn't if you overstate the ability of the South Africans whilst understating the Australians at the same time.

I have said that I rate Hilfenhaus, Siddle and Mitch.

I want to see Bollinger, Harris and McKay against India, England and South Africa. The sides with the better batting line-ups or even a West Indies side at full strength.

While it was Harris and Bollingers debuts against us last summer we made them both look ordinary considering Parnell has rarely looked ordinary at 20 years of age or De Wet coming in on his debut.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

You're talking as if he bowled badly in the last test and his international career. Got 5 wickets at 24's in his 2 tests and has proved he can handle pressure on the big stage averaging 21 in ODI's. Bowled well in both tests.

If you're comparing Parnell to P.Collins/Powell because they bowled rare dangerous spells then you obviously haven't seen enough of Parnell.

If you watch enough of his cricket you can see has a lot of ability to reach a brilliant peak in his career. He has bowled many a dangerous spell. Not just spells that are going to be one offs. He has done it consistently in his short career which suggests a lot of ability.

At 20 he has been told to run in and bowl fast and try take wickets. Thats what he does..he is a wicket-taker. He can get hit for 4,4,4 but because he has the right attitude he can bowl you a 4th ball to get you out.

I think thats pretty good for a 20 year old.

He's started his ODI career pretty decently, but he's also been very expensive and has played very little cricket on the whole. So he's hardly proved anything yet. When he plays at least twice as much as he has now, we can review properly what he's proved.

As for Parnell as a Test match bowler, he's not even been taking FC wickets recently. You're not telling me that the SA domestic competition is stronger than international cricket, are you? Especially when it's supposedly full of greentops.

Parnell has a lot of potential, but he's not proved anything or come close to doing so. Ftr, if you're suggesting that Parnell bowls threatening spells more often than Collins, you have to be basing that largely on exploits in domestic cricket (where he averages over 30 ftr). And I can tell you that I've seen Collins bowl an awful lot of good spells too.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I want to see Bollinger, Harris and McKay against India, England and South Africa. The sides with the better batting line-ups or even a West Indies side at full strength.

Barring a return by Lara, West Indies was about as full strength as it gets when Bollinger and McKay were in action. Bollinger was by far the more impressive of the two, mind. Gayle can attest to that.

 

[SeamUp]

He's started his ODI career pretty decently, but he's also been very expensive and has played very little cricket on the whole. So he's hardly proved anything yet. When he plays at least twice as much as he has now, we can review properly what he's proved.

As for Parnell as a Test match bowler, he's not even been taking FC wickets recently. You're not telling me that the SA domestic competition is stronger than international cricket, are you? Especially when it's supposedly full of greentops.

Parnell has a lot of potential, but he's not proved anything or come close to doing so. Ftr, if you're suggesting that Parnell bowls threatening spells more often than Collins, you have to be basing that largely on exploits in domestic cricket (where he averages over 30 ftr). And I can tell you that I've seen Collins bowl an awful lot of good spells too.

hats the thing with Parnell...he has that X-factor where he performs better on the big stage when under more pressure.

Thats also the thing with Parenll as well, when he goes back to his franchise he is not 100% comitted and has discipline issues. Thats not the case when with the international squad though as it has been said where he trains as hard and plays as hard as the next person.

By no means is he the finished article.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But he's just not been on the big stage long enough to prove that he can consistently perform on it. These things can't be taken for granted.