"You Can't Teach Judgment"

[Goughy]

There is a great quote from Wilf Rhodes in "No Coward Soul"

"You can't teach pluck, judgment nor concentration" which Appleyard slightly disagrees with as he thinks concentration can be improved.

It is something I have often thought having seen many talented cricketers who fail to convert talent and ability into success and I think it is an important thing to remember when assessing young cricketers.

Anyway, discuss.

 

[four_or_six]

Hmmm... interesting. Because you can learn it.

 

[slowfinger]

Hmmm... interesting. Because you can learn it.

You'll never master it by learning it, it has to come and click.

 

[four_or_six]

You'll never master it by learning it, it has to come and click.

I don't mean learn it deliberately, necessarily.

 

[silentstriker]

Well, I would put down Dhoni as a great counter example actually. Compare him to when he first came on. He's a smart guy, realiized very quickly that his Made in Jharkaland temperment and shots won't fly at this level, and if you look at his progressive strike rate and shot selection, it's been an unbelievable change over his career. I think in many cases, pride gets in the way, and for some, if they've been doing it for a decade, it's much harder to change.

Look at his cumulative S/R in both ODIs and Tests.

 

[slowfinger]

Well, I would put down Dhoni as a great counter example actually. Compare him to when he first came on. He's a smart guy, realiized very quickly that his Made in Jharkaland temperment and shots won't fly at this level, and if you look at his progressive strike rate and shot selection, it's been an unbelievable change over his career. I think in many cases, pride gets in the way, and for some, if they've been doing it for a decade, it's much harder to change.

Look at his cumulative S/R in both ODIs and Tests.

Good work there, actually took him 3/4 years untill it finally got to him in 07/8

 

[Top_Cat]

Can definitely teach judgement, it's a skill like any other.

 

[Uppercut]

I don't think it's unlearnable. But what I think is strange is when people act like the mental side of the game is the easiest to teach. "Ah, well he's got all the talent, and his technique's great, he just needs to sort out the mental side of his game and he'll be a top-class player". Just? That's the hardest part!

 

[Debris]

I don't think it's unlearnable. But what I think is strange is when people act like the mental side of the game is the easiest to teach. "Ah, well he's got all the talent, and his technique's great, he just needs to sort out the mental side of his game and he'll be a top-class player". Just? That's the hardest part!

Not the hardest, just the most likely to be missing at the top level. Those lacking in talent don't even make it to first class cricket and you certainly can't learn talent.

 

[andyc]

Afridi to confirm

 

[Richard]

I don't think it's unlearnable. But what I think is strange is when people act like the mental side of the game is the easiest to teach. "Ah, well he's got all the talent, and his technique's great, he just needs to sort out the mental side of his game and he'll be a top-class player". Just? That's the hardest part!

What I think is strange is how physical assets are regarded as talents and mental assets aren't. For me mental and physical talents are both talents - and a talent to me suggests something that can be honed (though there's a ceiling to almost anything) with work.

Whereas an asset (height, speed of arm and not a great deal else in cricketing context) is something that cannot be improved no matter what.

Things like eyesight and concentration are talents (the former a physical one, the latter a mental) which can be honed, but if you haven't got them to a great degree there's nothing as can be done.

 

[Jono]

The Dhoni example is so good. Can't quite remember a cricketer making such a drastic change in recent times than him.

 

[dikinee]

I coach a junior team and I try to impress upon them the importance of practicing not playing a shot but it isnt something that comes naturally to most. Patience and shot selection can be taught to a student who is willing to learn but courage and eye hand co-ordination cant be taught no matter how hard you try.

 

[Top_Cat]

I coach a junior team and I try to impress upon them the importance of practicing not playing a shot but it isnt something that comes naturally to most. Patience and shot selection can be taught to a student who is willing to learn but courage and eye hand co-ordination cant be taught no matter how hard you try.

Largely agree but dispute the courage bit, tbh. Surely if that were the case, you'd have far fewer people to choose from to get in the way of hard flying objects a la hockey goalies?

 

[wfdu_ben91]

It all comes with maturity and experience. Hence why most players peak around the age of 27-33.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Judges need to go through a system to learn..judging. Not a perfect analogy with the legal system, but it does suggest it is something you can learn.

 

[dikinee]

I will have to agree to disagree. I have seen plenty of kids with natural athletic abilities, good co-ordination and balance but cant get past the fear of being hit by the ball. They mostly go on to be successful at a different sport. That is not to say they are more plentiful than the kids who have very little ability but have the courage to stick it out and develop their skills. The latter are certainly the more common of the two.

 

[Richard]

It all comes with maturity and experience. Hence why most players peak around the age of 27-33.

Players peaking at that sort of age (seamers generally at 27-29, batsmen more often 30-32) has more to do with having honed all the skills and still having the natural assets functioning about as well as ever and being able to use them.

The importance of maturity and experience is horribly overrated by many people. As if a 22-year-old doesn't know not to bowl a load of long-hops - he just hasn't yet honed his skills sufficiently to bowl as few of them as he might at 27.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Players peaking at that sort of age (seamers generally at 27-29, batsmen more often 30-32) has more to do with having honed all the skills and still having the natural assets functioning about as well as ever and being able to use them.

The importance of maturity and experience is horribly overrated by many people. As if a 22-year-old doesn't know not to bowl a load of long-hops - he just hasn't yet honed his skills sufficiently to bowl as few of them as he might at 27.

Not really, most International players that debut in their early 20's are capable of doing just as much as they can when they are in their early 30's. It's about knowing your game. Maturity comes with the experience of having dealt with pressure situations, converting starts into big scores and dealing with other stuff such as sledging, quality bowling and so on. Obviously at International level, a player in their 30's is going to cope with that sort of stuff allot better then a player in his early 20's, who is just making their way at International level. An inexperienced player is more likely to do something rash. You see the same with young bowlers, who tend to overattack.

Before the age of 27, players rely more on ability. During the ages of 27-33, at their peak, it's a combination of experience and ability - which is where they should have most of their success. After the age of 33, it's moreso experience that players rely on as their body starts to fade on them.

 

[Richard]

Stereotypes are so good for some people, clearly.

Reality is many players know perfectly well how to do what they need to do before they even hit their 20s. I know how to bowl and\or bat at international level, and have done for years - I just don't have the ability to do it. And no matter how much I hone whatever ability I have, I won't ever get near international standard. I haven't ever really come close to making the most of what ability I do have either, because I don't practise and analyse myself very much - often at all.

Some players are more talented than others, some are better at honing their skills than others and some enjoy different advantages in skill-honing than others. Consequently, different players develop, and deteriorate, at different rates, at different starting ages and to different extents. There is no real template - but the idea that all or most players in their early to mid 20s need to experience anything to know what they need to do is nonsensical. All you need to do to learn that is to have seen it, whether your name is on a teamsheet or not.