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A Case for Referrals

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Haha yup. I don't know how anyone can keep a straight face and say they're OK with the bad decisions. BCCI is doing that apparently, the morons, and deserve all the Sydneys they get from now on.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Some pretty bad ones, the Langer LBW clearly pitched outside leg. Will give him the MacGill one as a genuine dismissal.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, there may be problems with it but it is working so much better this year, just have look at the last test in South Africa, Smith challenged and went on to get a hundred and then on the last day England would have lost if Collingwood wasn't able to refer right early on in his innings. Must say though that part of me feels that we should just review every wicket that falls although that seems to give an advantage to the batsman so maybe not a good idea.


Oh and Caddick was a very good bolwer.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Oh and Caddick was a very good bolwer.
Absolutely. The reason I was looking at this clip was I saw the Waqar clips and wanted to re-watch Caddick swinging the ball around corners in his amazing spell against WI.

When he was in the mood and got it right he was a real handful for any batsman. This thread isnt meant to be denigrating his efforts.
 
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zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Absolutely. The reason I was looking at this clip was I saw the Waqar clips and wanted to re-watch Caddick swinging the ball around corners in his amazing spell against WI.

When he was in the mood and got it right he was a read handful for any batsman. This thread isnt meant to be denigrating his efforts.
No and the errors in his favour and the errors against him may have evened each other out. My view is that we shouldn't need to rely on two wrongs making a right any more. We have the ability to improve decision-making and on-field behaviour dramatically by the introduction of "technology", and rather to my surprise it has been embraced by the powers-that-be. Praise be!
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Absolutely. The reason I was looking at this clip was I saw the Waqar clips and wanted to re-watch Caddick swinging the ball around corners in his amazing spell against WI.

When he was in the mood and got it right he was a read handful for any batsman. This thread isnt meant to be denigrating his efforts.
Yeah just watched that four wickets in an over.

Always loved Caddick, probably my favourite England bowler since I started watching cricket, was lucky enough to see him be part of the attack that bowled West Indies out for 54, was 12 at the time and really wanted to see Lara but still loved it when he was one of Caddick's victims.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Yeah, shocker. Also, Im guessing it was Brett Lee but that ball isnt even close to the glove. Clearly comes of the forearm guard.
Yes bad one aswell.

I'm happy with the referral system at the moment, has certainly improved since the last time it was trialled, and did eradicate a number of bad ones made by the main man Harper in the last Eng v SA Test. It still needs one or two slight modifications and improvements with it, imo, but it is definitely a step in the right direction.

I am in favour of the tight decision (especially LBW) going with the onfield umpires. It does still mean you can have two outcomes from one delivery, dependant on the umpires decision and who refers it, but it does show support for the decision of the standing umpires.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Yes bad one aswell.

I'm happy with the referral system at the moment, has certainly improved since the last time it was trialled, and did eradicate a number of bad ones made by the main man Harper in the last Eng v SA Test. It still needs one or two slight modifications and improvements with it, imo, but it is definitely a step in the right direction.

I am in favour of the tight decision (especially LBW) going with the onfield umpires. It does still mean you can have two outcomes from one delivery, dependant on the umpires decision and who refers it, but it does show support for the decision of the standing umpires.
I have to say, as something of a sceptic initially, it has worked a lot better on our current tour than it did in the Windies. Using the pitch map and Hawkeye have definitely made it more effective. The absence of snicko and hotspot is very annoying, but easily (if not cheaply) rememdied. Absolutely agree with tight calls staying with the on-field umps too, but think the definition of "tight calls" is a little broad currently. Swann had one review rejected where it looked like the majority of the ball was hitting the stumps on the projection. There's obviously a margin of error, but not that big a one, surely?

One potential flaw, and I've been banging on about it since the idea was first mooted, is the number of reviews and the scope for uneven application. We saw three genuine howlers in the third test (Prince "caught" down leg off one he missed by six inches, KP LBW to one he smacked the cover off and Colly "caught" behind off his sleeve) which were all overturned. My worry is that such genuine bollocks dropped by the umpires might on occasion have to stand still because the reviews have already been exhausted.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
One potential flaw, and I've been banging on about it since the idea was first mooted, is the number of reviews and the scope for uneven application. We saw three genuine howlers in the third test (Prince "caught" down leg off one he missed by six inches, KP LBW to one he smacked the cover off and Colly "caught" behind off his sleeve) which were all overturned. My worry is that such genuine bollocks dropped by the umpires might on occasion have to stand still because the reviews have already been exhausted.

But that should be the point of the system ie to overturn howlers. If a team is referring marginal calls and losing their reviews then more fool them

Should only refer appeals you are sure of (or tactically, I guess)
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
One potential flaw, and I've been banging on about it since the idea was first mooted, is the number of reviews and the scope for uneven application. We saw three genuine howlers in the third test (Prince "caught" down leg off one he missed by six inches, KP LBW to one he smacked the cover off and Colly "caught" behind off his sleeve) which were all overturned. My worry is that such genuine bollocks dropped by the umpires might on occasion have to stand still because the reviews have already been exhausted.
Your point is obviously completely valid, and it's a concern I share, but I think there's an important trade-off here though. There might be a case for having, say, 3 reviews per innings rather than 2. But regardless of the precise number of reviews, I'm all for limiting it in this sort of way because it encourages the players to show some discipline in the use of the system, and it improves players' behaviour. Unlimited reviews would cause pretty bad delays and I think would be both unpopular and too unwieldy to work in practice.

I'm a massive fan of the new system but to me it makes sense to implement it gradually. If it works (which it will) the uses of technology will be refined and incrementally, and carefully, expanded.
 
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BoyBrumby

Englishman
But that should be the point of the system ie to overturn howlers. If a team is referring marginal calls and losing their reviews then more fool them

Should only refer appeals you are sure of (or tactically, I guess)
I do agree and I think the captains have increasingly made efforts to only refer the real howlers (of which we saw none under Dar and Davis in two tests but three under Hill and Harper in one, go figure...) but it's not an exact science and it seems to me that major injustices could still have stand because the captain or the previous batsmen have been a bit trigger happy.

I don't pretend to have an easy answer (more referrals? But how many?), but it's an accident waiting to happen with Howler as an umpire.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Yes I see where you're coming from. There will inevitably come a point when the major howler is not eradicated, and you hope it is not in a crucial situation, alternatively you hope it is in an important situ so that this part of the system can be reviewed itself.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Nice bit of bowling by Caddick.

Yeah you will not see me complaining about the referral system, I love it. Awesome move making the benefit of the doubt going to the umpire and not the batsman for instance.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I do agree and I think the captains have increasingly made efforts to only refer the real howlers (of which we saw none under Dar and Davis in two tests but three under Hill and Harper in one, go figure...) but it's not an exact science and it seems to me that major injustices could still have stand because the captain or the previous batsmen have been a bit trigger happy.

I don't pretend to have an easy answer (more referrals? But how many?), but it's an accident waiting to happen with Howler as an umpire.
I think two is a good number. Three would be pushing it, and anymore than that and you will start just referring random things. Two-three is a good amount.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
No and the errors in his favour and the errors against him may have evened each other out. My view is that we shouldn't need to rely on two wrongs making a right any more. We have the ability to improve decision-making and on-field behaviour dramatically by the introduction of "technology", and rather to my surprise it has been embraced by the powers-that-be. Praise be!
Exactly.

And frankly two wrongs never did make one right. They just made two wrongs which in my books is even worse than one wrong !

The Indians under Kumble (and he gets a lot of the blame from me) got it completely wrong in Sri Lanka. They seemed to be under the illusion that referrals were, on an average supposed to sometimes go for you and some times against you when you asked for them in a close decision. Of course that was stupid. Its not the "toss of a coin". Sri Lanka and Mahela got it right because they realised that referrals are to be used when you are convinced that you have been dealt a wrong decision. Referrals are not the same as appealing to a blind umpire hoping that he will give at least some in your favour.

Since they got the answers they were not looking for for some stupid questions, they decided the system was unreliable and worse. Having once taken that stand they are acting like the petulant spoilt kids that they have resembled on so many occasions of late. BCCI seems to think that supporting its players even when they are wrong is the right thing to do. Sadly if they just decided to think, just think as in using what's between the ears, they would realise that the system is good for the game and therefore for those who play and watch it and therefore for the Indians too.

But then logic isn't the strong point of petulant spoilt kids . . .
 
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