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Pietersen V Smith

Who would you rather have in your side?


  • Total voters
    56

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
This was a bit of a discussion in the tour thread, but I reckon others might have some useful input.

You'll get no prizes for guessing who I'd rather have in my team, but what got me is that one if the big arguments used for Smith is that he scores important runs in the 3rd and 4th innings? Do these make him a better batsman than Pietersen? And has Pietersen never done this?

I've got a lot of reasons why I prefer KP but I thought I'd highlight a few innings that show that the pressure/importance thing doesn't only work for Smith.

57 & 67* V Australia, July 05, Lord's - pretty much the only batsman to stand up and be counted. What a way to make your debut, the pressure of a home Ashes Test at Lord's, with your team-mates collapsed. Pietersen wasn't peturbed. Does an innings need to be a hundred to be appreciated? Not in my house.

158 V Australia, Sept 05, The Oval - you might have heard of this one. Of course, it could have been different if he hadn't been dropped, but he seized the opportunity and took the game away from Australia when, once again, all around him were dropping like flies. A magnificent innings - and this was in the 3rd innings as well.

142 V Sri Lanka, May 06, Edgbaston - England won this game by six wickets, in theory a comfortable win. Alas, look at how many runs the rest of the team scored as Murali tore us apart. Pietersen brought out the switch-hit for possibly the first (maybe the second) time here and hammered Murali. Had he scored less, I have no doubt England would have lost the game, and then the series.

134 V India, July 07, Lord's, - England should have won this game, being cruelly robbed by rain (IMO!!!). We would have lost but for a magic 3rd innings ton by Pietersen - the next highest score was 42. Yet another time when nearly everyone around him was getting out but he just kept on going.

101 V India, August 07, The Oval - a fourth innings ton that went a long way to saving the game for England.

129 V New Zealand, March 08, Napier - Came to the crease with the score on 4-2, in a series decider. Lost another partner after facing just one ball, and before long another had gone as well, at 36-4 England were staring a series defeat in the face. Pietersen was the only top six batsman to score any meaningful runs, with Stuart Broad the next highest contributor with 42. Ryan Sidebottom would cash in on great bowling conditions and the pitch flattened out to allow Strauss to make a career-saving 177 in the 3rd innings, but it was Pietersen who allowed England to go on and win the game.

115 V New Zealand, June 08, Nottingham Early in his innings, Pietersen saw three partners fall for two runs; England were 86-5. He played a hugely important century, and along with a lower middle order of Ambrose, Broad and Anderson saw England to a respectable 364 - England wound up winning by an innings thanks to some magic bowling from Anderson - how different would it have been without Pietersen's contribution?

152 V South Africa, July 08, Lord's - Things were going along swimmingly, with England in control. Pietersen came in after two quick wickets, but at 117-2 there was no need to panic. When Cook went it was all of a sudden 117-3, and South Africa's tails were up. It was also Pietersen's first Test match against the nation where he was born. To say he was under pressure would be an understatement, just as it would be to call his a good innings. That England's bowlers could not finish the job should take nothing away from this.

100 V South Africa, August 08, The Oval - Century in his first innings as skipper, enough said.

144 V India, December 08, Mohali - Yet another top order failure, Pietersen came in with the score at 2-2 after the opposition had put 400 on the board. Whilst England's total was still poor, the follow-on was avoided and the match never looked likely to be lost from there.

102 V West Indies, March 08, Trinidad - Often overlooked because of the flat pitch, but England needed a miracle to set up a winning position in the final Test. Strauss and Cook failed to get going, and Shah scored just 1. Pietersen scored 102 from 92 balls, exactly the kind of innings that the situation required.

You may disagree with may take on these, and of course there are times he has failed. I jsut wanted to highlight it because there seemed to be a school of thought that Pietersen's runs have been a lot easier to come by than Smith's.

What are your thoughts?
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I think KP suffers a bit from the Tendulkar in the 90s type expectation. Being far and away the best batsman in your side, your failures are glared at and you're critisized everytime there is a failure in the batting. While stronger batting lineups would have other players that take up the slack and thus you can get away with not scoring.
 

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It's really close. Smith for me. An opener averaging 50 is generally a lot harder to come by than a middle-order batsman averaging 50, particularly in South Africa where the new ball is lethal.

I don't think anyone's saying KP scores easy runs, ftr. It's just that Smith plays some unspeakably tough innings in seriously sticky situations for South Africa. I'd rank his ability under pressure as the best in the world.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
It's really close. Smith for me. An opener averaging 50 is generally a lot harder to come by than a middle-order batsman averaging 50, particularly in South Africa where the new ball is lethal.

I don't think anyone's saying KP scores easy runs, ftr. It's just that Smith plays some unspeakably tough innings in seriously sticky situations for South Africa. I'd rank his ability under pressure as the best in the world.
Well, what many have said is that the difference between them is the fact that Smith scores his runs when the pressure is on. When you bat four for England, the pressure is usually on.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I think KP suffers a bit from the Tendulkar in the 90s type expectation. Being far and away the best batsman in your side, your failures are glared at and you're critisized everytime there is a failure in the batting. While stronger batting lineups would have other players that take up the slack and thus you can get away with not scoring.
Conversely, when you do perform your performances are exaggerated whereas in a better side it can be lost in the midst of your mates performing.
 

ozone

First Class Debutant
Probably also worth pointing out that Smiths average is inflated by the fact he's played 10 tests against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (averaging 80+) and without these games included, his average at home dips to a shade above 40.
 

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That's why he averages 45 at home. :p
Haha that doesn't matter. If you play 50% of your games in the world's toughest place to open and come out averaging 50, you're either awesome at opening at home or awesome enough at opening away from home to make up for being merely incredibly good at home. The inevitable end result is that Smiffy rules.
 

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Probably also worth pointing out that Smiths average is inflated by the fact he's played 10 tests against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (averaging 80+) and without these games included, his average at home dips to a shade above 40.
Yeah, averages 47 without Bangladesh and Zimbabwe ftr.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Averages 47.59 without minnows, leaving KP 2 runs ahead.

As you should all know, I don't use averages to prove why one man is better than the other. Just thought I'd throw it out there :ph34r:

edit, goda damn upper****
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
134 V India, July 07, Lord's, - England should have won this game, being cruelly robbed by rain (IMO!!!). We would have lost but for a magic 3rd innings ton by Pietersen - the next highest score was 42. Yet another time when nearly everyone around him was getting out but he just kept on going.
Was at Lords that day and it is without doubt the best innings I have ever seen live, it was really tough in the morning session but the way he accelerated after lunch was extraordinary. Will always remember that performance.

As for the wider question, I think it is pretty hard to seperate them really and as for who I would rather have in the side it really depends on the circumstances and what you needed, they perform very different roles and both do them very welll.
 

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Well, what many have said is that the difference between them is the fact that Smith scores his runs when the pressure is on. When you bat four for England, the pressure is usually on.
England aren't that much worse than South Africa tbf. I think if your team's faced with a lot of time to bat out or a steep and awkward-looking run chase you'll always take Smith. KP scores enough runs at other times to make up the difference, of course, there's a lot of personal preference coming into the comparison.

I dunno. I feel much more confident with Smith standing between the opposition and victory than I would with KP in the way. That's what swings it for me. It's not necessarily that Smith is better, I'd just rather have him in my team. He's not going to sky one to Dinesh Ramdin or lob Paul Harris down AB De Villiers' throat when we're already deep in the ****.
 
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GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I feel compelled to mention the fact that Pietersen performs above his overall average against Australia whereas Smith drops off hugely. You're talking pressure, they are pretty much the biggest games either of those have played in, no?
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Fair point, most of his failures against Australia were back then.

Depends how pedantic you are with the 'now' though. In terms of form there is only one winner.
 

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I feel compelled to mention the fact that Pietersen performs above his overall average against Australia whereas Smith drops off hugely. You're talking pressure, they are pretty much the biggest games either of those have played in, no?
No, not really. Pressure situations can't really be quantified statistically by dividing runs into who they were scored against or, as Smith fans often try, which innings they were scored in.

Last time South Africa toured Australia, Smith hit 48 and 108 (when chasing 414) in the opening test then 62 and 75 (chasing 183 to win) in the second test. It was in the dead rubber that he scored 30 rh and 3.

Pressure isn't measured by who your opponents are.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
No, not really. Pressure situations can't really be quantified statistically by dividing runs into who they were scored against or, as Smith fans often try, which innings they were scored in.

Last time South Africa toured Australia, Smith hit 48 and 108 (when chasing 414) in the opening test then 62 and 75 (chasing 183 to win) in the second test. It was in the dead rubber that he scored 30 rh and 3.

Pressure isn't measured by who your opponents are.
Pressure can be measured by lots of things. Games being the biggest ones of your career being one of them.

You're not a fan of the scoring against the best matters more theory, okay fair enough. But when two players have similar records, and one earned his runs against Australia and the other Bangladesh, well...

There's more to it than that. But Pietersen's performances against Australia in his debut series, and then away to the best Australian team ever count for a LOT.
 

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