Please can the ICC ban CSA from world cricket!!

[jboss]

What happened ten minutes ago?

Just had enough!

 

[Protean]

No sweat no longer support proteas as of 10 mins ago. Go England

Wouldn't have really called it support myself Good luck with that though.

 

[Matt79]

Look forward to seeing you talk about some differbt topics then. Sounds like time to let go re Proteas.

 

[Richard]

It's discrimination, but it's not racism.

Discrimination on the grounds of race = racism, no?

 

[Sanz]

As some one else mentioned the help should be restricted to the grass root levels. Improve school education throughout the country. Special incentives could be given to teachers who teach in villages. This would attract more competent teachers. But don't give reservations for higher studies. We wouldn't want to trust our lives with guys who aren't good enough to be a doctor on merit.

Grass Root level for what ? Education or everything else ? I am sorry but the only way the unprivileged and untouchables can be brought into the main stream by giving them Quotas at every level of education which will make sure that there is some sort of representation of all classes.

I have seen how special incentives and attractive pay to teachers work in India. Take all the pay and show up once in a month.

 

[Sanz]

sport is being abused a hundred times more in modern day south africa than in the past.

 

[zaremba]

Discrimination on the grounds of race = racism, no?

No. You can be guilty of race discrimination without having a racist bone in your body. You can discriminate on grounds of race without that being your intention, and you may have the best of motives.

If you're interested, you can find online the short explanatory press release issued by the UK Supreme Court along with its Judgment in the Jewish Free School case a week ago in which the Court tool great pains to emphasise this distinction. I would post a link but can't from my iPhone.

 

[Matt79]

The UK Supreme Court Dismisses the Jewish Free School Appeal Human Rights in Ireland

 

[Uppercut]

That's interesting!

I agree with Richard though. I consider racism to be discrimination on the basis of race, full stop, and consider the JFS policies to have been deeply racist. You don't have to have a racist bone in your body to implement a racist policy.

 

[Uppercut]

I didn't say top education, I said decent schools. I didn't go to a private school myself, but I was certainly offered the opportunity to play a fair selection of sports. Including soccer by the way. I would think it unfair for government not to focus funds where these opportunities are not available. And because of our past, this tends to be in areas and schools where the kids are, for the most part, black Africans. You may not like it, but that's the way it is, funds are limited and they should absolutely go to the most needy.

We had a similar situation in Northern Ireland. The key point is that funds should be distributed on the basis of who is most in need of them, not who has the darkest skin colour (or in Ireland's case, who is Catholic). In practice they will often end up going to the same people. But the process by which the funds are distributed in the first place is very important.

 

[shivfan]

Graeme Smith definitely voiced the opinion than an all white South African side should never happen again.

And in modern-day South Africa, I would think he's right....

I don't have a problem with the quota system. Yes, it's not perfect, but it has helped to change the face of Saffer cricket for the better.

And now, the black, 'coloured' and Asian players seem to be in the team on merit....

 

[Goughy]

We had a similar situation in Northern Ireland. The key point is that funds should be distributed on the basis of who is most in need of them, not who has the darkest skin colour (or in Ireland's case, who is Catholic). In practice they will often end up going to the same people. But the process by which the funds are distributed in the first place is very important.

Yeah it makes no sense that a wealthy and privileged black kid that goes to the top schools that are cricket factories with the most amazing facilities will continue to get additional preferencial treatment over the poor white boy based purely on the colour of his skin.

In distributing funds (which are finite) there are 2 considerations a) who needs it the most. This has to be done on assessed need rather than the grouping of all people into set brackets b) biggest bang for the buck. In terms of cricket development spending millions of rand to promote the game where there is little interest and poor infrastructure is pretty pointless.

 

[Smudge]

Just had enough!

 

[Richard]

No. You can be guilty of race discrimination without having a racist bone in your body. You can discriminate on grounds of race without that being your intention, and you may have the best of motives.

Well I've been at pains in the past to point-out that racist comments can only be made by a racist - otherwise if there's no racist malice behind them they're merely comments which can be interpreted as racist. So I guess I see what you mean by that. Still, I have a hard time accepting that any form of discrimination which gives undue favour to one race ahead of another can be aught but racism. Even if it's not the same as saying "<insert race> is inherently superior to <insert other race>".

 

[Richard]

I don't have a problem with the quota system. Yes, it's not perfect, but it has helped to change the face of Saffer cricket for the better.

And now, the black, 'coloured' and Asian players seem to be in the team on merit....

I disagree that it has. There has only relatively rarely been a case of an obvious quota-only selection - ie, a player whose selection would've been implausible but for the quota policy. The quota policy has been around nowhere near long enough for it to be an acceptable idea that it's encouraged previously-disadvantaged groups to play. Asian and Cape Coloured cricketers - ie, the sort who we see in decent numbers in the SA team currently - have always had a strong cricketing history.

The only difference now is that they're not discriminated out of the side. The only difference is that those who were once ignored are now picked. That's the result of merit selection being applied, not dis-applied.

 

[Goughy]

Regarding what I was saying earlier in the thread about he possibility of of Black African quotas only and the lack of Black cricketers in SA: As we have mentioned previously many cricketers that have come through are Cape Coloured (Jean-Paul Duminy, Herschelle Gibbs, Ashwell Prince, Robin Peterson, Charl Langeveldt, Garnett Kruger and Justin Ontong etc) and come from areas with a history of cricket.

To get a better understanding of SA cricket, people should, IMO, take a second (if they have not already) to familiarise themselves with the distinct differences between Black and Coloured.

I have just been having a look at this movie (if it is available for free anywhere on the web legally then please let me know) "I'm Not Black, I'm Coloured - Identity Crisis at the Cape of Good Hope" which looks like a good place to start. I have not seen it so I cant vouch for it but it will show the clear differences between white, black and coloured and their respective political strength and cultural norms.

Amazon.com: I'm Not Black, I'm Coloured - Identity Crisis at the Cape of Good Hope: Kiersten Chace: Video On Demand

"I'm Not Black, I'm Coloured details the complex existence of a people living in a country that continues to struggle with racial identity. In 1994, the Cape Coloured embraced Desmond Tutu's concept of an all-encompassing "rainbow nation" only to discover shortly thereafter that the privilege, freedom, economic growth, and equal representation would not include them. In the aftermath of this realization, they became confused: was apartheid the injustice that kept them separated from whites, or the blessing that kept them apart from the blacks?"

The point I am trying to make is that they are so politically, culturally, historically and ethnically different to black africans that any advancement in coloured cricket has zero reflection on black african cricket or on the progress being made with the majority of the nation.

On a lighter note, Merry Christmas

 

[jboss]

Yes. Wouldn't you? I don't know which team you support but I think after 20 years of quotas, match fixing scandals, DL ****-ups, racist policies and choke after choke, I think it's best to leave the proteas to do thier thing. It's time to stop treating the proteas as if they deserve my support based on the fact that I was born in South Africa as they seem to abuse it as though it is some right. They have done nothing to earn my support and I feel better off supporting India or Eng. Eng have had major issues themselves but have done better than SA in recent years and at least manage to beat Aus 2 times in last 10 years at home which is more than SA have done.

 

[Langeveldt]

On the topic, just about, but did anyone watch the Out of The Wilderness series during the Test matches when SA were touring England in '08?

One thing that has really stuck with me after that series is how absolutely everybody they interviewed about the future of SA cricket said they would never like to see an all white SA cricket team.

Asking jboss or anyother South African here, what is the general feeling in SA towards the "targets"? Obviously jboss is very clearly against them, as am I personally, but do large sections of the cricket following public aggree with/accept them?

That really annoyed me.. Why can't SA have an all white team, or an all black one for that matter, if it were to enable us to be the best in the world?

The public (apart from jboss) dont seem to be massively phased by what is going on providing SA remain succesful, but if we slip right down the rankings, expect that to change..

 

[Kyle]

On the topic, just about, but did anyone watch the Out of The Wilderness series during the Test matches when SA were touring England in '08?

One thing that has really stuck with me after that series is how absolutely everybody they interviewed about the future of SA cricket said they would never like to see an all white SA cricket team.

Asking jboss or anyother South African here, what is the general feeling in SA towards the "targets"? Obviously jboss is very clearly against them, as am I personally, but do large sections of the cricket following public aggree with/accept them?

I saw the Out of The Wilderness series, and it was a disgrace. It was a loaded question, asked in a way to get the answer they wanted, asking "You wouldn't want to see a full white South African team, would you?", without qualification. "Would you mind seeing a full white South African team, if it was on merit?" or "Would you want to see an unmerited coloured/black selection?", I'm sure, would have attracted a different answer. Yes, it's natural to want to be represented but at the same time, you want to be proud rather than ashamed of your representation.