Best left handed batsman of all time

[bagapath]

Mistakenly voted for Sobers, is there ne way to change my vote to Lara???

it is not a mistake. so dont worry. no need to change

 

[Pothas]

I see that but i dont really understand y. In the end i will concede that Sobers is probably a better bat than Lara but by that much. Sobers after all did average sumthin like 20 odd vs New Zealand of his time

pointless use of a stat if ever I saw one.

 

[bagapath]

It's very possible he would have been AFAIC. However, all we'll ever know is that it's possible.

To deny that it was possible would be foolish IMO. To say "it didn't happen and I don't care about any level below Test cricket" would be equally foolish; to say "Gavaskar got the chance, Richards didn't" is about all that makes sense.

That is not, of course, to say that one who considers Gavaskar > Richards is foolish, just to say that the idea that it's a clear-cut thing is foolish. Going either way is fair enough IMO.

sunil gavaskar's great test record is a fact. so calling him a great test cricketer is fine. barry richards' test record is an assumption based on his excellent FC record. calling him an equally great test cricketer is stupid. so going either way is not fair. one way, the "gavaskar is a great" argument, is fair. there is no other way.

 

[Days of Grace]

I'm going to put my reputation on the line here and say that Brian Lara was the greatest left-hander of all time. Better than Sobers.

Think of the great bowling attacks that Lara faced in his time, and compare them to Sobers. McGrath/Warne/Donald, et all were better than McKenzie/Davidson/Snow. Also, Sobers played a lot of his cricket on flat Windies pitches, esp. in the post 1970 series against India and New Zealand, and even in the 1958 series vs. Pakistan, where he scored a mountain of runs.

Sure, Sobers peak in the late 1950s and early 1960s was probably as good as any batsmen in the history of the game barring Bradman, but Lara came back after his first peak and against the best bowling attacks in the world.

I think that because Sobers played in more winning teams and because of his added brilliance as an allrounder, and because of the nostalgia of a time since past, that he is rated as better.

I think it's an injustice to Lara that some posters say that Sobers was much better.

 

[Goughy]

If you love your left handers then the 1970 Eng vs ROW series would have been one to watch (should have Test status for my liking)

Sobers dominating and Lloyd and Pollock amongst the runs

Rest of the World cricket team in England in 1970 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mushtaq Mohammad (Pakistan and Rest of the World):
I'll never forget in the last game at The Oval watching Sobers and Graeme Pollock scoring for fun. Someone on the balcony shouted: "Lads, come and watch - you will not see this again." They were matching each other stroke for stroke. It was like, "what ever you can do, I can do better". It was entertainment of the highest class.

 

[SJS]

I see that but i dont really understand y. In the end i will concede that Sobers is probably a better bat than Lara but by that much. Sobers after all did average sumthin like 20 odd vs New Zealand of his time

There will almost always be a statistical kink everywhere and you can find it if you look hard enough. They don't always have to prove anything unless one is looking for them to justify one's pre-decided position. Lilley's stats in Pakistan are a famous case in point.

 

[Days of Grace]

To be honest, if you average in the high 50s vs. the best attacks of your time, then why worry about averaging 20-something vs. a minnow?

 

[0RI0N]

sunil gavaskar's great test record is a fact. so calling him a great test cricketer is fine. barry richards' test record is an assumption based on his excellent FC record. calling him an equally great test cricketer is stupid. so going either way is not fair. one way, the "gavaskar is a great" argument, is fair. there is no other way.

Kinda like people claiming Warne would have been a brilliant test captain.
Amidoinitright bagapath?
To topic Sobers then seperated by the breadth of Sehwag's thinning hair, BC LARA.

 

[bagapath]

Kinda like people claiming Warne would have been a brilliant test captain.
Amidoinitright bagapath?

Yup. I have managed to remain a huge warne fan without needing to resort to these fantasies. what he has achieved is great enough that I dont have to add these "ifs" and "buts" to call him an all time champion.

similarly barry richards' achievements in FC and super tests prove that he was a brilliant batsman at that level. by unnecessarily comparing him with great test cricketers we should not sully his name.

back to topic. sobers and lara both should share the top spot probably because not only are they statistically similar, they are equal match even aesthetically.

 

[steve132]

Because he was a much better batsmen. There are tens of thousands of people around the world who saw both of them bat and dozens who played against Sobers and watched Lara closely. The opinion is almost unanimous amongst this lot.

I'm going to put my reputation on the line here and say that Brian Lara was the greatest left-hander of all time. Better than Sobers.

Think of the great bowling attacks that Lara faced in his time, and compare them to Sobers. McGrath/Warne/Donald, et all were better than McKenzie/Davidson/Snow.

Sobers also faced Lindwall, Miller, Trueman, Statham, Fazal Mahmood, Bedi, Benaud, Chandrasekhar, Gupte and Underwood. This is as least as impressive a group of bowlers as those faced by Lara.

Also, Sobers played a lot of his cricket on flat Windies pitches, esp. in the post 1970 series against India and New Zealand, and even in the 1958 series vs. Pakistan, where he scored a mountain of runs.

Sobers played 44 Tests in the West Indies and 49 away from home. Lara played 65 Tests in the West Indies and 66 away from home. As such, Lara played a higher proportion of his Tests at home.

Sobers averaged 66.80 in the West Indies and 50.73 away from home. Lara averaged 58.65 in the West Indies and 47.80 away from home. Sobers has both a better home AND a better away record than Lara.

Sure, Sobers peak in the late 1950s and early 1960s was probably as good as any batsmen in the history of the game barring Bradman, but Lara came back after his first peak and against the best bowling attacks in the world.

Sobers' peak was not the late 1950's and early 1960's, but rather the period between 1966 and 1968. He averaged 103 in England in 1966, 114 in India in 1967 and 90 at home against England in 1968. All of these runs were made when he was the second best bowler in his team (after Gibbs) as well as the world's best fieldsman.

I think that because Sobers played in more winning teams and because of his added brilliance as an allrounder, and because of the nostalgia of a time since past, that he is rated as better.

I think it's an injustice to Lara that some posters say that Sobers was much better.

No, Sobers is rated more highly partly because he has a better record than Lara, but also and more importantly because he was a more consistent as well as a more brilliant batsman. As SJS observed, the vast majority of cricketers, journalists and fans who saw both men play regard Sobers as the greater batsman.

None of this is intended to denigrate Lara. It is not an insult to call someone the second best left hander in the history of the game. Most of those who consider Sobers to be his superior would probably agree that Lara is one of the ten best batsmen to ever play the game.

 

[bagapath]

steve why have you posted so little in your four years in this forum when you obviously know what you are talking about?

 

[honestbharani]

Sobers also faced Lindwall, Miller, Trueman, Statham, Fazal Mahmood, Bedi, Benaud, Chandrasekhar, Gupte and Underwood. This is as least as impressive a group of bowlers as those faced by Lara.



Sobers played 44 Tests in the West Indies and 49 away from home. Lara played 65 Tests in the West Indies and 66 away from home. As such, Lara played a higher proportion of his Tests at home.

Sobers averaged 66.80 in the West Indies and 50.73 away from home. Lara averaged 58.65 in the West Indies and 47.80 away from home. Sobers has both a better home AND a better away record than Lara.



Sobers' peak was not the late 1950's and early 1960's, but rather the period between 1966 and 1968. He averaged 103 in England in 1966, 114 in India in 1967 and 90 at home against England in 1968. All of these runs were made when he was the second best bowler in his team (after Gibbs) as well as the world's best fieldsman.



No, Sobers is rated more highly partly because he has a better record than Lara, but also and more importantly because he was a more consistent as well as a more brilliant batsman. As SJS observed, the vast majority of cricketers, journalists and fans who saw both men play regard Sobers as the greater batsman.

None of this is intended to denigrate Lara. It is not an insult to call someone the second best left hander in the history of the game. Most of those who consider Sobers to be his superior would probably agree that Lara is one of the ten best batsmen to ever play the game.

AWTA.. I rate Lara the best batsmen I have seen but from most of the guys in the know who have seen both, Sobers was better.. How "much" better is a different question but I do think he was perhaps better by a decent enough margin...

 

[Richard]

I see that but i dont really understand y. In the end i will concede that Sobers is probably a better bat than Lara but by that much.

Even if the difference between them was minimal (which it isn't BTW) then as long as there's clarity there'll be a fair hike in a poll.

Numbers in a poll isn't equivalent to "how much better is <A> than <B>".

Sobers after all did average sumthin like 20 odd vs New Zealand of his time

In New Zealand, not against. And it amounted to a single serious series.

 

[Richard]

Why are you correcting people when it's not even his name?

Garfield is his name of course but it's plenty often shortened to Garry, never Gary.

 

[Richard]

sunil gavaskar's great test record is a fact. so calling him a great test cricketer is fine. barry richards' test record is an assumption based on his excellent FC record. calling him an equally great test cricketer is stupid. so going either way is not fair. one way, the "gavaskar is a great" argument, is fair. there is no other way.

No-one is calling Barry Richards a great Test cricketer because he did not get the chance to be one; that Sunil Gavaskar was is beyond question. However, Test cricket is not the only level of cricket that exists and it's quite fair in my book to consider Richards a better batsman (not Test batsman, batsman) than Gavaskar based on what cricket does exist.

 

[Richard]

I'm going to put my reputation on the line here and say that Brian Lara was the greatest left-hander of all time. Better than Sobers.

Think of the great bowling attacks that Lara faced in his time, and compare them to Sobers. McGrath/Warne/Donald, et all were better than McKenzie/Davidson/Snow. Also, Sobers played a lot of his cricket on flat Windies pitches, esp. in the post 1970 series against India and New Zealand, and even in the 1958 series vs. Pakistan, where he scored a mountain of runs.

Sure, Sobers peak in the late 1950s and early 1960s was probably as good as any batsmen in the history of the game barring Bradman, but Lara came back after his first peak and against the best bowling attacks in the world.

And Lara only came back for his second peak at the precise time that a large number of others had the exact same thing.

Everything you say about Sobers can also be applied to Lara.

 

[bagapath]

No-one is calling Barry Richards a great Test cricketer because he did not get the chance to be one; that Sunil Gavaskar was is beyond question. However, Test cricket is not the only level of cricket that exists and it's quite fair in my book to consider Richards a better batsman (not Test batsman, batsman) than Gavaskar based on what cricket does exist.

cool. my uncle thinks his friend is the greatest fast bowler of all time because he was a terror in the backyard games. he says first class cricket is not the only level of cricket. he considers him to be a better bowler (not test/FC bowler, bowler) than lillee and marshall combined. to each his own, I guess.

 

[Richard]

If so, and I somehow rather doubt the truth of that story, then that's his lookout. However, the difference between domestic-FC and Test level and unorganised backyard stuff and FC level is so much more chasmic as to render any comparison rather obviously silly to most eyes.

 

[JBMAC]

cool. my uncle thinks his friend is the greatest fast bowler of all time because he was a terror in the backyard games. he says first class cricket is not the only level of cricket. he considers him to be a better bowler (not test/FC bowler, bowler) than lillee and marshall combined. to each his own, I guess.

Actually thats a more accurate statement than what you may thinkI feel sure we all know a cricketer we have played with at either first class or club level who were better players than some of the Test players running around at that time.Then due to career moves, marriage, new kids, job committments moved away from the game and did not reach their obvious potential

 

[SJS]

The scepticism about Barry Richards short Test career would have been justified if he had no other opportunity to play against the top bowlers in the world. For his state and county sides, for South African XI's, for Rest of the World etc, he played against many visiting Test sides, against the Rest of the World XI and the rebel tours to South Africa. Invariably these sides had Test class bowling attacks. I have compiled a list of such matches played by him including his four Test matches. The matches are spread over 18 years which is longer than most Test careers barring few. Yet his record is very good.

4309 runs at over 58 per innings is not to be scoffed at. In the 80's he had clearly declined. If you take away those five games the average zooms to over 62. In fact this is why the bowlers of the day speak so highly of his batting. They had first hand experience of his calibre at the best level possible.

Here are the figures.

[B]Date	Opponent	Runs	Bowl 1	Bowl 2       	Bowl 3	Bowl 4	Bowl 5	Bowler 6[/B]
Oct-64	MCC         	63	Price 	Thomson   	Dexter	Titmus	Hobbs	
Oct-64	MCC         	13	Price 	Thomson   	Dexter	Titmus	Hobbs	
Nov-64	MCC         	15	Brown	Thomson   	Dexter	Alan	Cartwright	
Nov-64	MCC         	29	Brown	Thomson   	Dexter	Alan	Cartwright	
Feb-65	MCC         	25	Brown	Cartwright  	Dexter	Alan	Hobbs	
Feb-65	MCC         	0	Brown	Cartwright  	Dexter	Alan	Hobbs	
Dec-66	Australians	107	McK'zie	Renneburg        Hawke	Simpson	Vievers	
Dec-66	Australians	12*	McK'zie	Renneburg        Hawke	Simpson	Vievers	
Dec-66	Australians	38	McK'zie	Renneburg 	Watson	Simpson	Vievers	
Dec-66	Australians	75	McK'zie	Renneburg	        Watson	Simpson	Vievers	
Dec-66	Australians	88	McK'zie	Hawke       	Watson	Hubble	Cowper	
Dec-66	Australians	65	McK'zie	Hawke       	Watson	Hubble	Cowper	
Aug-68	ROW XI    	68	Pollock	Hall           	Barlow			
Aug-68	ROW XI    	6	Pollock	Hall           	Barlow			
Aug-68	ROW XI    	0	Pollock	Hall           	Barlow			
Aug-68	ROW XI    	81	Pollock	Hall           	Barlow			
Jul-69	Windies     	86	Roberts	Shillingford	Davis	Sobers	Gibbs	
Jul-69	Windies     	120*	Roberts	Shillingford	Davis	Sobers	Gibbs	
Aug-69	New Zealand	132	Collis	Taylor       	Cunis	Pollard	Burgess	Yuile
Jan-70	Aussies     	29	McK'zie	Connolley  	Gleeson	Mallett		
Jan-70	Aussies     	32	McK'zie	Connolley  	Gleeson	Mallett		
Feb-70	Aussies     	140	McK'zie	Connolley  	Gleeson	Freeman		
Feb-70	Aussies     	65	Mayne	Connolley  	Gleeson	Freeman		
Feb-70	Aussies     	35	Mayne	Connolley  	Gleeson	Freeman		
Mar-70	Aussies     	81	McK'zie	Connolley  	Gleeson	Mayne		
Mar-70	Aussies     	126	McK'zie	Connolley  	Gleeson	Mayne		
Jun-70	England     	35	Snow	Shuttleworth      Ward	Illingworth	Underwood	D'Oliviera
Jul-70	England     	64	Snow	Brown       	Greig	Illingworth	Underwood	D'Oliviera
Jul-70	England     	30	Snow	Brown       	Greig	Illingworth	Underwood	D'Oliviera
Jul-70	England     	47	Snow	Brown       	Greig	Illingworth	Underwood	D'Oliviera
Jul-70	England     	32	Snow	Brown       	Greig	Illingworth	Underwood	D'Oliviera
Jul-70	England     	21*	Snow	Old           	Greig	Illingworth	Wilson	D'Oliviera
Aug-70	England     	14	Snow	Old           	Lever	Illingworth	Wilson
Aug-70	England     	14	Snow	Old           	Lever	Illingworth	Wilson
Nov-70	MCC         	224	Snow	D'Oliviera   	Lever	Illingworth	Wilson	
Dec-70	MCC         	146	Willis 	D'Oliviera   	Lever	Shuttleworth	Underwood	
Dec-70	MCC         	23	Willis 	D'Oliviera   	Lever	Shuttleworth	Underwood	
May-71	Pakistan    	35	Imran	Masood     	Pervez	Intikhab		
May-71	Pakistan    	87*	Imran	Masood     	Pervez	Intikhab		
Jul-71	Indians      	10	Prasana	Venkatraghvan				
Jul-71	Indians      	45	Prasana	Venkatraghvan				
May-72	Aussies     	73	Lillee 	Watson     	Gleeson	Inverarity	Hammond	
May-72	Aussies     	33	Lillee 	Watson     	Gleeson	Inverarity	Hammond	
Jan-73	DH Robins XI	45	Willis 	Lever        	Brown			
Jan-73	DH Robins XI	38	Willis 	Lever        	Brown			
Feb-73	DH Robins XI	100	Willis 	Lever        	Brown	Jackman	Knight	
Apr-73	New Zealand	102	Hadlee	Collinge     	Howarth	Pollard		
Apr-73	New Zealand	24	Hadlee	Collinge     	Howarth	Pollard		
May-73	New Zealand	87	Hadlee	Hadlee      	Howarth	Congdon		
Nov-73	DH Robins XI	15	Snow	Lever        	Shephard	Woolmer		
Nov-73	DH Robins XI	16*	Snow	Lever        	Shephard	Woolmer		
Nov-73	DH Robins XI	36	Snow	Lever        	Shephard	Gleeson		
Nov-73	DH Robins XI	81	Snow	Lever        	Shephard	Gleeson		
Dec-73	DH Robins XI	180	Snow	Lever        	Shephard	Close		
Dec-73	DH Robins XI	59	Lee   	Lever        	Shephard	Close	Woolmer	
Apr-74	MCC         	189	Hendrik	Jackman   	Knight	Edmonds	Ackfield	
May-74	Indians      	49	AbidAli	Madan Lal 	Bedi	Prasanna	Venkat	
Aug-74	Pakistan	9	Malik	A. Iqbal	Intikhab     	Mushtaq	Wasim Raja	
Aug-74	Pakistan	100	Malik	A. Iqbal	Intikhab     	Mushtaq	Wasim Raja	
Mar-75	DH Robins XI	2	Shepard	Hemmings 	Close			
Mar-75	DH Robins XI	28*	Shepard	Hemmings 	Close			
Mar-75	DH Robins XI	58	Shepard	Walker      	Greig	Jenner		
Mar-75	DH Robins XI	28	Shepard	Walker      	Greig	Jenner		
Jul-75	Australia    	96	Thomson	Hurst         	Walker	Higgs	Mallett	
Jul-75	Australia    	69	Thomson	Hurst         	Walker	Higgs	Mallett	
Jan-76	DH Robins XI	5	Hendrik	Douglas     	Cope	Steele		
Jan-76	DH Robins XI	13	Hendrik	Douglas     	Cope	Steele		
Apr-76	I'ntl Wanderers	52	Lillee 	Gilmour     	Walker	Shephard	Mallett	
Apr-76	I'ntl Wanderers	0	Lillee 	Gilmour     	Walker	Shephard	Mallett	
Apr-76	I'ntl Wanderers	33	Lillee 	Gilmour     	Hurst	Shephard	Underwood	
Apr-76	I'ntl Wanderers	80	Lillee 	Gilmour     	Hurst	Shephard	Underwood	
Mar-82	EngSA Brewries	66	Taylor	Lever        	Old	Underwood		
Mar-82	EngSA Brewries	4	Taylor	Lever        	Old	Underwood		
Mar-82	EngSA Brewries	8	Taylor	Lever        	Old	Underwood	Willey	
Mar-82	EngSA Brewries	41	Taylor	Lever        	Old	Hendrick		
Mar-82	EngSA Brewries	17	Taylor	Lever        	Old	Hendrick		
Jan-83	Windies     	49	Clark 	Stephenson      Mosley	Parry		
Jan-83	Windies     	7	Clark 	Stephenson      Mosley	Parry		
Jan-83	Windies     	0	Clark 	Stephenson      King	Parry		
Jan-83	Windies     	59	Clark 	Stephenson      King	Parry