Can any one tell me what the hell Ponting is talking about ?

[Ikki]

It does not make anysense in comparing draw percentage between teams A and B with those of matches between teams X and Y. That does not prove anything. Thus talking of draws bwtween sub continental teams does not prove anything.

Indian and Pakistani sides may, for example be able to play each other's bowling much more comfortabley and the games between them might. therefore, have a higher proportion of draws. England and Australia may have fewer draws. This does not tell us anything about the relative merits of the wickets.

If we looked at India vs Pakistan in India and then the same two teams in Pakistan then we may be able to draw some conclusion.

Uppercut just mentioned that the likelihood of draw between India vs Pakistan is the same as that between them and non-subcontinental teams.

The only good point brought up against the flat-pitch claim is bowling strength. In the 90s India, for example, had the best home attack and the draws - or lack of them - illustrate how much an attack helps produce a result.

However, as good as they were at home, they were mediocre away. I'd say India's bowling stocks in the past decade were as good, if not better, than those in the 90s. They actually got success away from home. However, their dominance at home - in terms of producing results - has taken a bit of a nose-dive. Yet again, the question of flatter pitches arises.

 

[Furball]

Hang on, 2 pitches in recent times in India that have provided early finishes - Mumbai in 2004 and Kanpur in 2008 - have been severely criticised.

 

[Uppercut]

What were the percentage of draws in the 80's and 90's?

Haha look it up yourself!

Higher than they are this decade though, I believe.

 

[Uppercut]

Hang on, 2 pitches in recent times in India that have provided early finishes - Mumbai in 2004 and Kanpur in 2008 - have been severely criticised.

Wrongly, IMO.

Although Ponting was one of those who had a moan about the one in Mumbai. So I guess that defence doesn't work for him

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

it's much easier to improve the pitches than it is to improve the bowlers.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The little I know of doctoring pitches suggests that it's a lot harder to get a pitch to do what you'd like than most of us think. And prevailing conditions have a lot to do with it too. Even in India I'd hazard to guess it's a very thin line between 2 innings in 5 days and all 4 innings in 2 days. That is, between draws and 2-day Tests.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Haha look it up yourself!

Higher than they are this decade though, I believe.

haha, I cbf'ed myself

Assuming they were higher in the 80's and 90's, and taking at face value Ponting's statement about lots of draws being cause for "worry for the health of cricket's longer version", shouldn't test cricket have died circa 2000 AD?

 

[Uppercut]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The little I know of doctoring pitches suggests that it's a lot harder to get a pitch to do what you'd like than most of us think. And prevailing conditions have a lot to do with it too. Even in India I'd hazard to guess it's a very thin line between 2 innings in 5 days and all 4 innings in 2 days. That is, between draws and 2-day Tests.

Yeah, this is true. If they're curators at some of the world's biggest cricket grounds they ought to be good at it, though. Fast bowling is difficult too but it doesn't stop Daren Powell receiving criticism for doing it badly.

Besides, we should certainly try improving the bowlers too .

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

shouldn't test cricket have died circa 2000 AD?

I am the law! Put down your weapons and prepare to be judged.

 

[Uppercut]

haha, I cbf'ed myself

Assuming they were higher in the 80's and 90's, and taking at face value Ponting's statement about lots of draws being cause for "worry for the health of cricket's longer version", shouldn't test cricket have died circa 2000 AD?

Ack, the fact that it's always been the case doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.

 

[Furball]

However, as good as they were at home, they were mediocre away. I'd say India's bowling stocks in the past decade were as good, if not better, than those in the 90s. They actually got success away from home. However, their dominance at home - in terms of producing results - has taken a bit of a nose-dive. Yet again, the question of flatter pitches arises.

Flatter pitches, or Anil Kumble being less able to impact on matches?

In the 1990s, Kumble played 23 Tests in India, taking 163 wickets @ 21.35. India won 16 of those 23 Tests, Kumble taking 118 wickets @ 16.74.

In the 2000s, Kumble played 34 Tests in India, taking 187 wickets @ 27.96. India won 12 of those 34 Tests, Kumble taking 90 wickets @ 18.23.

For comparison, Harbhajan has played 40 home Tests, taking 214 wickets @ 26.90. India have won 20 of those 40 Tests, Harbhajan has taken 132 wickets @ 20.31.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yeah, this is true. If they're curators at some of the world's biggest cricket grounds they ought to be good at it, though. Fast bowling is difficult too but it doesn't stop Daren Powell receiving criticism for doing it badly.

But remember matches need to go into day 5, for monetary reasons, and then produce a result by the end of it. That's a VERY thin line.

Powell's only ever had to worry about the line between crap and mediocrity.

 

[MrIncredible]

Top Australian Run Scorers in Australia this decade:

RT Ponting - 5183 @ 67.31
ML Hayden - 5033 @ 59.21
JL Langer - 3479 @ 51.82
AC Gilchrist - 2496 @ 43.78
MEK Hussey - 1945 @ 64.83
MJ Clarke - 1861 @ 58.15
DR Martyn - 1773 @ 52.14
SR Waugh - 1592 @ 53.06

Top Indian Run Scorers in India this decade:

R Dravid - 3683 @ 53.37
SR Tendulkar - 3290 @ 52.22
V Sehwag - 3202 @ 56.17
VVS Laxman - 2703 @ 51.98
SC Ganguly - 2068 @ 39.76
G Gambhir - 1480 @ 49.33
MS Dhoni - 1116 @ 44.64

Only 2 of those Australian batsmen average over 50 outside of Australia for the decade - Gilchrist and Waugh. Laxman, Dravid and Tendulkar all average more outside the subcontinent for the decade than they do at home, and Ghambir averaged 89 on his 1 tour outside the subcontinent so far.

So how do these Australian batsmen get on when they are faced with subcontinental "batting paradises"? (average in India alone in brackets - Clarke and Hussey have only played in India)

RT Ponting - 652 @ 29.63 (21.85)
ML Hayden - 1348 @ 48.14 (51.35)
JL Langer - 727 @ 34.61 (29.92)
AC Gilchrist - 614 @ 34.11 (28.50)
MEK Hussey - 394 @ 56.28
MJ Clarke - 651 @ 46.50
DR Martyn - 864 @ 54.00 (55.50)
SR Waugh - 274 @ 39.14 (48.60)

Now how do the same group of Indian batsmen fare when they leave their comfort zones and travel to the "fairer" pitches of Australia?

R Dravid - 885 @ 63.21
SR Tendulkar - 925 @ 66.07
V Sehwag - 750 @ 62.50
VVS Laxman - 1034 @ 64.62
SC Ganguly - 545 @ 34.06
G Gambhir - No Tests in Australia
MS Dhoni - 141 @ 17.62 (1 series)

Sorry but thats only because India has hardly come up against a full strength Oz attak in Oz (not since 99 ) The attacks of 04 and 08 were ok but neither were what i would call very good/great oz attacks

 

[Dissector]

I don't have the stats but I can guarantee that the draw stats would be very different in the 80's and 90's in India. There was indeed a serious problem with Indian pitches in the 80's and results were often the exception. In the 90's this changed pretty dramatically and as mentioned earlier you had lots of results. In the last few years there have been a few too many roads, usually one per series but I don't think it's been terrible. The draw percentage isn't a good measure of the quality of test cricket anyway. After all the Ashes 2005 series had a 40% draw percentage as did the latest Ashes.

 

[Ikki]

Yet Kumble does massively better in the 00s away than he did in the 90s. Suggests that foreign soil aided him more whereas his own became less lethal.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Sorry but thats only because India has hardly come up against a full strength Oz attak in Oz (not since 99 ) The attacks of 04 and 08 were ok but neither were what i would call very good/great oz attacks

Worse than subcontinental attacks?

 

[asty80]

Ponting has always been frustrated at India..from the turbanator cleaning him up for ducks in his debut series in India ..through Sydneygate..probably through the Kolkata test which ended Aussies streak..and now with India becoming no.1 in tests.

Its a reflection of his state probably referring that the aussies find it most difficult to win in the sub continent.

 

[Furball]

Wrongly, IMO.

Although Ponting was one of those who had a moan about the one in Mumbai. So I guess that defence doesn't work for him

So the BCCI are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Prepare a pitch that is extremely receptive to spin, and get a good, exciting Test match, and the board responsible will be hauled up in front of the ICC for preparing a "substandard pitch."

Yet a deck in Adelaide, or Leeds, or Johannesburg which sees the ball zip around heaps off the seam won't see anywhere near the same amount of condemnation.

Just checking cricinfo for info about the 2002/03 series between New Zealand and India, and there was no condemnation of the pitches there.

Fleming says up to Indian batsmen to prove their world-class | Cricket News | Global | Cricinfo.com

Compare and contrast:

Ponting slams disappointing pitch | Australia Cricket News | Cricinfo.com

So which do you want Ricky?

 

[Furball]

But remember matches need to go into day 5, for monetary reasons, and then produce a result by the end of it. That's a VERY thin line.

Powell's only ever had to worry about the line between crap and mediocrity.

One of the curators in the recent India vs Sri Lanka series (might have been Kanpur) was explicitly told to produce a deck which would last 5 days.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I for one, totally agree with Ponting. I do not even enjoy test cricket in the subcontinent (especially India and Pakistan anymore) because its simply not a contest between bat and ball anymore. A look at some of the test matches in Pakistan over the last 3-4 years will prove just how many games ended in dull draws, how many games saw both teams scoring well over 450...
Its unfair to get defensive just because Ponting happens to be an 'outsider" not from the subcontinent. He is making a fair point here and dissenting view should tackle that only, not his batting performance in India, and him being jealous of India's number 1 ranking.

 

[SJS]

I for one, totally agree with Ponting. I do not even enjoy test cricket in the subcontinent (especially India and Pakistan anymore) because its simply not a contest between bat and ball anymore. A look at some of the test matches in Pakistan over the last 3-4 years will prove just how many games ended in dull draws, how many games saw both teams scoring well over 450...
Its unfair to get defensive just because Ponting happens to be an 'outsider" not from the subcontinent. He is making a fair point here and dissenting view should tackle that only, not his batting performance in India, and him being jealous of India's number 1 ranking.

I agree with two things one that cricket is not interesting because it isn't even a contest any more and two that his comments have absolutely nothing to do with how he fares/fared as a batsman in the sub-continent or anywhere else.

I too find it impossible to sit through most cricket matches (all cricket matches not just Tests) today and that, my wife will tell you, is something earth shattering. The reason is the same - batsmen are having it too easy and I was moved enough to do this feature on the subject.

My point is why does Ponting single out the sub-continent. I suspect the timing of his statement gives him away. He is upset by India's moving to number one spot in the rankings and he feels this is achieved not through beating the best but by drawing and winning enough games to edge out Australia (and South Africa).

He isn't completely unjustified in thinking that is so but he needs to say exactly that. Criticise the ranking systems which equate two draws to a win and no negative points for a loss. The batting wickets and how the rankings are calculated are unrelated issues even if bothe are valid. That is why his criticism of the sub-continent for draws is strange.