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What shoul SA do when their ENG exports come running back to SA?

Zinzan

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AWTA. Never bothered me that Dipak Patel or Roger Twose chose to emigrate from England to NZ to pursue their careers there. Didn't make me think any less of them, or of the NZ teams that they played for. I can't believe anyone feels any ill-will towards either of them, and I'm sure that when they come back to England they are warmly welcomed.
Meh Patel & Twose :happy:

Don't get me wrong, Twose was a very accomplished one-day batsman, but I'd give you both he & Patel back in exchange for Andrew Caddick any day of the week. A bowler who could take wickets.

Funny, it hasn't often been mentioned of Caddick, (not that I've seen anyways) that not only was he born in NZ, but actually didn't leave until he was about 21.
 

Zinzan

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Were I live the crime rate is lower than anywhere in London, I do not live behind burglar bars, my kids get to school on their bikes and I am white and not discriminated against.

Correct me if you are not, but you Sound to me like an expac trying to justify leaving. You don't need to do that. In doing so you give my country a bad name. Refrain from generalising your experiences please.

Regards

Longtom
Refreshing point this ...well said
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
"Participation in sports, games and physical activities"

Unless Im much mistaken (which is possible as I barely read the report :)) that report includes hopelessly twatting the ball around on a public court during Wimbledon, splashing around with your mates at the pool and hopping on the bike to buy fags from the shop. None of which is close to pulling on the whites and playing an organized game of cricket.

Participation to me involves competition. I can see squash being high due to inhouse events, but the rest are not participating in sport.
No, I agree with your interpretation of the report. However, I think you're describing 'participation in competitive sport' rather than 'participation in sport'. Although which is more valid to look at I don't know, and where you draw the line is difficult. Very few adults actually do the former.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Meh Patel & Twose :happy:

Don't get me wrong, Twose was a very accomplished one-day batsman, but I'd give you both he & Patel back in exchange for Andrew Caddick any day of the week. A bowler who could take wickets.

Funny, it hasn't often been mentioned of Caddick, (not that I've seen anyways) that not only was he born in NZ, but actually didn't leave until he was about 21.
Yup Caddick was in reality as much of a I'll-play-in-England-because-I-want-to-rather-than-because-I-was-brought-up-there as Pietersen. Think he was about the same age as Pietersen when he made the move though - 19-20.

He like the Pietersens, Lambs etc. did have British parentage, but he was NZ born-and-bred.

He doesn't fit a broad category like Pietersen, Trott, Kieswetter etc. do though, so he's no use to those trying to use such categories to prove a point.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No, I agree with your interpretation of the report. However, I think you're describing 'participation in competitive sport' rather than 'participation in sport'. Although which is more valid to look at I don't know, and where you draw the line is difficult. Very few adults actually do the former.
Hmm - non-competetive sport is basically something (generally relatively young) children do, same way playing with toys is basically something young children do. Children come more under the "prospective viewers \ participants" than "viewers \ participants" for mine.

I've said it before but "playing football" for me isn't really putting a couple of bags down and kicking a ball around with 15 or so people, same way "playing cricket" isn't getting a bin and a tennis-ball and having one person bowl for however long, one person bat until they're out and a few people field.

Playing cricket is eleven players per side playing in accordance with the Laws Of Cricket; playing football is eleven players per side playing in accordance with whatever the rules about football are, with an independent referee.

Having a kickabout or a knockabout and playing sport are different things AFAIC.
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
Hmm - non-competetive sport is basically something (generally relatively young) children do, same way playing with toys is basically something young children do. Children come more under the "prospective viewers \ participants" than "viewers \ participants" for mine.

I've said it before but "playing football" for me isn't really putting a couple of bags down and kicking a ball around with 15 or so people, same way "playing cricket" isn't getting a bin and a tennis-ball and having one person bowl for however long, one person bat until they're out and a few people field.

Playing cricket is eleven players per side playing in accordance with the Laws Of Cricket; playing football is eleven players per side playing in accordance with whatever the rules about football are, with an independent referee.

Having a kickabout or a knockabout and playing sport are different things AFAIC.
*shrug* I think a lot of people would count a knockabout or training with football, or cricket nets, as playing. Like, if you went once to training and played on a Saturday, I think people may well say they played football twice a week.

It is different for different sports, too. A lot of people play tennis recreationally but go to club sessions or with family and play informally rather than in a competition.

I think I am the opposite to what you said. When I was a child I played lots of sport competitively, because that's when you have the opportunity to so. Now I don't play any competitive sport, I just play informally.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
NZ born but not bred in that case?
Huh? He was born in NZ (though to British parents) and UIMM was brought-up there. I don't think they were regularly tripping back to "Ol' Blighty", though I may be mistaken as I don't know the Caddick family history.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
*shrug* I think a lot of people would count a knockabout or training with football, or cricket nets, as playing. Like, if you went once to training and played on a Saturday, I think people may well say they played football twice a week.
I know - my point is in my opinion they're kidding themselves to say so. For me, I don't count throwing bat and ball around as "playing cricket" (not that I virtually ever do that any more), only when I actually step onto the field with 10 others, and a couple of Umpires and scorers. I never considered I was "playing football" when I kicked a ball around at breaktime at school, just kicking the ball around with as many others as fancied doing so. Nets and the like (the football equivalent would be the training ground) is different really because that's specifically practice for a match situation. Precious few people would train without playing.
It is different for different sports, too. A lot of people play tennis recreationally but go to club sessions or with family and play informally rather than in a competition.
True and some sports are much narrower and offer much less scope for informal participation - generally the more individual and less team-based ones; however equally there may not neccessarily be arranged competitions. Tennis for instance I'd say I've never actually played in terms of hitting a ball around a court and trying to win points against another person. But many times I have, and still do, hit a ball with a tennis-racquet with (as opposed to against) another person purely as something to do.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Funny, it hasn't often been mentioned of Caddick, (not that I've seen anyways) that not only was he born in NZ, but actually didn't leave until he was about 21.
Played all his FC cricket up here which, given he was a relatively late emigre, is surprising. Was he a late bloomer?
 

Zinzan

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NZ born but not bred in that case?
Vaguely recall Chris Cairns mentioning something in his book about playing representative age-group cricket with/against Caddick from around ages 12 to 18.

And found the following from Wikipedia (which incidentally doesn't always guarantee creditability)


Early career

"Caddick was born in Christchurch, New Zealand to English parents,[3] and educated at Papanui High School.[4] As a youngster, he modelled his bowling action on that of Richard Hadlee.[5] He appeared three times for New Zealand Young Cricketers, all of his appearances coming in February 1988.[6] His performances were unremarkable, the highlight being an unbeaten 20 with the bat and bowling figures of 1/16 off three overs in the first One Day International (ODI) against the touring India Under 19 team.[7] In spite of his modest figures in the two matches against the Indians, he retained his place for the first match of the McDonald's Bicentennial Youth World Cup. However, after struggling with 0/39[8] he lost his place, and would not appear for New Zealand again.

Frustration at what he saw as a lack of opportunities to be selected for the New Zealand Test side drove him to try his luck in England,[9] something New Zealand captain Ken Rutherford would later rue, commenting that "he slipped through the net and given our lack of depth we can ill afford to lose players like him".[10] He played a handful of games for Middlesex Second XI in late 1988 and early 1989, taking 17 wickets in four matches for them at 26.71.[11] On his Somerset Second XI debut in June 1989, Caddick took 8/46 in Surrey Second XI's first innings.

He was restricted to playing in the Second XI Championship for the 1990 and 1991 seasons, as Jimmy Cook was the club's overseas player and Caddick had yet to serve his four years to qualify as an English player. In spite of this, he made his first-class debut for Somerset against the West Indians in May 1991,[12] but his only further match of the season was against the touring Sri Lankans in the August.[2]

His County Championship debut and breakthrough came in the 1992 season,[2] with Caddick immediately amongst the wickets, taking 4/96 against Gloucestershire.[13] Later in the season, he took his maiden 10 wicket haul against Kent,[14] and finished the season with a respectable 71 wickets at 27.01.[15] He impressed the right people and was rewarded with his county cap, and a place in the England A squad touring Australia.[16] He shone on the tour, finishing with a first-class bowling average of 28.60, by far the best on the England team.[17] A strong start to the following season, including a career best 9/32 in the second innings of a match against Lancashire,[18] saw him called up to the Test and one-day squads for the 1993 Ashes series."


Andrew Caddick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Langeveldt

Soutie
Meh Patel & Twose :happy:

Don't get me wrong, Twose was a very accomplished one-day batsman, but I'd give you both he & Patel back in exchange for Andrew Caddick any day of the week. A bowler who could take wickets.

Funny, it hasn't often been mentioned of Caddick, (not that I've seen anyways) that not only was he born in NZ, but actually didn't leave until he was about 21.
Why would any NZ'er move to England though? They live in a country that has it all in my book.. Economic reasons?
 

Zinzan

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Why would any NZ'er move to England though? They live in a country that has it all in my book.. Economic reasons?
Yeah, Caddick is a strange case & as some have already suggested, he really must have been a late-bloomer because it seems quite bizarre that left NZ failing to make much of an impression as a 20-21 y/old (see wiki quote above). It's not like NZ were spoilt for choice when it came to pace bowlers after Hadlee retired.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Vaguely recall Chris Cairns mentioning something in his book about playing representative age-group cricket with/against Caddick from around ages 12 to 18.

And found the following from Wikipedia (which incidentally doesn't always guarantee creditability)


Early career

"Caddick was born in Christchurch, New Zealand to English parents,[3] and educated at Papanui High School.[4] As a youngster, he modelled his bowling action on that of Richard Hadlee.[5] He appeared three times for New Zealand Young Cricketers, all of his appearances coming in February 1988.[6] His performances were unremarkable, the highlight being an unbeaten 20 with the bat and bowling figures of 1/16 off three overs in the first One Day International (ODI) against the touring India Under 19 team.[7] In spite of his modest figures in the two matches against the Indians, he retained his place for the first match of the McDonald's Bicentennial Youth World Cup. However, after struggling with 0/39[8] he lost his place, and would not appear for New Zealand again.

Frustration at what he saw as a lack of opportunities to be selected for the New Zealand Test side drove him to try his luck in England,[9] something New Zealand captain Ken Rutherford would later rue, commenting that "he slipped through the net and given our lack of depth we can ill afford to lose players like him".[10] He played a handful of games for Middlesex Second XI in late 1988 and early 1989, taking 17 wickets in four matches for them at 26.71.[11] On his Somerset Second XI debut in June 1989, Caddick took 8/46 in Surrey Second XI's first innings.

He was restricted to playing in the Second XI Championship for the 1990 and 1991 seasons, as Jimmy Cook was the club's overseas player and Caddick had yet to serve his four years to qualify as an English player. In spite of this, he made his first-class debut for Somerset against the West Indians in May 1991,[12] but his only further match of the season was against the touring Sri Lankans in the August.[2]

His County Championship debut and breakthrough came in the 1992 season,[2] with Caddick immediately amongst the wickets, taking 4/96 against Gloucestershire.[13] Later in the season, he took his maiden 10 wicket haul against Kent,[14] and finished the season with a respectable 71 wickets at 27.01.[15] He impressed the right people and was rewarded with his county cap, and a place in the England A squad touring Australia.[16] He shone on the tour, finishing with a first-class bowling average of 28.60, by far the best on the England team.[17] A strong start to the following season, including a career best 9/32 in the second innings of a match against Lancashire,[18] saw him called up to the Test and one-day squads for the 1993 Ashes series."


Andrew Caddick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good stuff. FWIW, by "born but not bred" I was just referring to the fact that his breeding (in the UK) happened before his birth (in NZ) rather than after it.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, Caddick is a strange case & as some have already suggested, he really must have been a late-bloomer because it seems quite bizarre that left NZ failing to make much of an impression as a 20-21 y/old (see wiki quote above). It's not like NZ were spoilt for choice when it came to pace bowlers after Hadlee retired.
Either a late bloomer or someone who wasn't being given the chances he should've been - like Pietersen.

Certainly seems he was a prolific age-group player; possibly he may have had a down year or two at the end of his teens, but possibly also he just wasn't being given the chances he should've been.

Also apparently he was ill-impressed with the domestic set-up in NZ and much more impressed when he came over to play for Middlesex.
 

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