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*Official* West Indies In Australia

Andre

International Regular
Strange appointment, the Langer one.

Would make accredited coaches wonder whether it's all worth it.
Indeed. My only thoughts are that he is one of Tim Neilsen's best mates and obviously close with Punter, so putting 2 and 2 together...
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Langer's got what a lot of accredited coaches don't have which is a stack of near-current successful experience in the Australian team playing international cricket. I'm guessing that's the rationale for the decision. Whether that translates into him being able to assist people as a coach is another issue, but obviously the team management would have a very good idea of how he bonds/deals with guys in the dressing room, so I guess they're hoping he's one of those individuals who are a natural at the coaching game.

The proof of this pudding will obviously be in the eating, but I wouldn't mind if our batting took on more of a Langer-style determination - especially the guys who will start coming into as guys like Hussey, Katich and Ponting move on. Probably reflects that I'm sometimes dubious of whether an actual accreditation as a coach makes anyone more or less likely to be more than simply competent with regards to some basic mechanics of performing the role of a coach - if he's working as part of a coherent team, there's no reason why Langer can't learn what he doesn't know as he goes in this role.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Hughes out already today against Tasmania
Looks like he really missed out on a golden chance to push his chances, with Jaques, Katich, Khawaja and especially Clarke all going on to make good scores. Good to see Clarke getting those runs.
 

Uppercut

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Langer's got what a lot of accredited coaches don't have which is a stack of near-current successful experience in the Australian team playing international cricket. I'm guessing that's the rationale for the decision. Whether that translates into him being able to assist people as a coach is another issue, but obviously the team management would have a very good idea of how he bonds/deals with guys in the dressing room, so I guess they're hoping he's one of those individuals who are a natural at the coaching game.

The proof of this pudding will obviously be in the eating, but I wouldn't mind if our batting took on more of a Langer-style determination - especially the guys who will start coming into as guys like Hussey, Katich and Ponting move on. Probably reflects that I'm sometimes dubious of whether an actual accreditation as a coach makes anyone more or less likely to be more than simply competent with regards to some basic mechanics of performing the role of a coach - if he's working as part of a coherent team, there's no reason why Langer can't learn what he doesn't know as he goes in this role.
Accreditation doesn't mean a massive amount. What irritates people is that there are always some coaches with 20-30 years of experience, a natural ability to coach and a fantastic reputation for improving batsmen at all levels. But these people are ignored. Instead they pick one of their old buddies who was good at batting and hope that he's also good at coaching. I'm don't know whether it's the right way to go about things.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Sure, but at the same time, what an international batsman needs from a coach will be different from what a grade or FC cricketer will.

I do see what you're saying, and I'm certainly not saying that good players automatically make good coaches, but I think there are some players whose experiences and personality make them naturally very good coaches, and from what I've heard of Langer as a guy, and as a leader of the teams he's been involved in, he does seem like he could be such an individual. I don't think that a familiarity and existing good relationship with the people he'll be coaching is of itself a bad thing - it will in some respects help, but will require the people involved to be professional about how they go about it.

As I said, the proof will be in the pudding.
 

howardj

International Coach
Langer's got what a lot of accredited coaches don't have which is a stack of near-current successful experience in the Australian team playing international cricket. I'm guessing that's the rationale for the decision.
.
Yeah, but I would argue Ponting has that as well. For mine, that base is already covered. I think the space to fill is somebody who can look at a batsman and say: "Right, you're falling over at the crease" or "Look, your trigger movement is the problem" etc etc.

It takes real skill to look at a batsman and analyse, technically, what they are doing different to what they normally do when they're batting well. As you say, Langer may have that skillset, who knows? But I think that at least should have been checked out prior to the appointment being made. My hunch is that it wasn't.
 

Top_Cat

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Accreditation doesn't mean a massive amount. What irritates people is that there are always some coaches with 20-30 years of experience, a natural ability to coach and a fantastic reputation for improving batsmen at all levels. But these people are ignored. Instead they pick one of their old buddies who was good at batting and hope that he's also good at coaching. I'm don't know whether it's the right way to go about things.
I'd back him, personally. Langer's a communicative sort, good captain/leader of men, tough as nails and a disciplined trainer/thinker. Aside from his cricketing background, the sorts of skills a bloke like him with a couple of Jiu Jitsu qualifications will bring should be helpful to elite cricketers.
 
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howardj

International Coach
I'd back him, personally. Langer's a communicative sort, good captain/leader of men, tough as nails and a disciplined trainer/thinker. Aside from his cricketing background, the sorts of skills a bloke like him with a couple of Jiu Jitsu qualifications will bring should be helpful to elite cricketers.
Is that like Buchanan's Sun Tsu (sp?), The Art of War?
 

Noble One

International Vice-Captain
At the highest level it is the mentor side of his appointment that is more useful than the purely technical role.

His appointment makes sense in that few cricketers have had such a wide variety of experiences as Langer, experiences that he can pass onto the members of the Australian team. He has been in the same position as Hughes, dropped from an early age and had to fight his way back. He has been in Watsons position, converted from a middle order batsman into an opener. He has faced similar pressures as Hussey, feeling the pressure of years of success followed by a slump in form and finding his position under threat.

I would prefer for the more technical profecient coaches to remain at state and underage level. Developing the likes of Khawja, Mitch Marsh, Steve Smith and co.
 

howardj

International Coach
I'd argue that you need a balance.

Ponting has had every experience that a batsman could ever wish to have.

For mine, Langer is too emotional.

I see Langer more as filling the Nugget Rees void (i.e. as team mascot) when Nugget passes on.
 

Andre

International Regular
I'd argue that you need a balance.

Ponting has had every experience that a batsman could ever wish to have.

For mine, Langer is too emotional.

I see Langer more as filling the Nugget Rees void (i.e. as team mascot) when Nugget passes on.
Agreed. It's no secret that he is a super intense bloke, and those sorts of personalities don't have a strong record as coaches because they don't handle other personalities strongly.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Yeah, but I would argue Ponting has that as well. For mine, that base is already covered. I think the space to fill is somebody who can look at a batsman and say: "Right, you're falling over at the crease" or "Look, your trigger movement is the problem" etc etc.

It takes real skill to look at a batsman and analyse, technically, what they are doing different to what they normally do when they're batting well. As you say, Langer may have that skillset, who knows? But I think that at least should have been checked out prior to the appointment being made. My hunch is that it wasn't.
The difference is Ponting already has a pretty full-on work-load as captain, tour selector and looking after his own form. Langer or whoever is the batting coach has none of that other stuff to worry about.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Agreed. It's no secret that he is a super intense bloke, and those sorts of personalities don't have a strong record as coaches because they don't handle other personalities strongly.
Yet he's been successful as a captain in a variety of settings...
 

Uppercut

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Sure, but at the same time, what an international batsman needs from a coach will be different from what a grade or FC cricketer will.

I do see what you're saying, and I'm certainly not saying that good players automatically make good coaches, but I think there are some players whose experiences and personality make them naturally very good coaches, and from what I've heard of Langer as a guy, and as a leader of the teams he's been involved in, he does seem like he could be such an individual. I don't think that a familiarity and existing good relationship with the people he'll be coaching is of itself a bad thing - it will in some respects help, but will require the people involved to be professional about how they go about it.

As I said, the proof will be in the pudding.
Those are all good points, but why appoint him before he's even been given the chance to coach a county or state side? Wouldn't it be better to let him coach with Somerset (who I'm sure would be delighted to have him) or WA for a year or two and see how he gets on there before giving him one of the biggest coaching roles in the country? You wouldn't pick a batsman for Australia before they'd played any FC cricket.

It all seems like a bit of a punt to me. He could go okay, but things could have been done so much better.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Yeah, fair points. These kinds of appointments are more often than not made on personal judgements rather than any kind of objective process - and it would be an interesting study to compare instances in cricket and other sports to try to categorise cases where it was a 'buddy' or gut appointment and where there was an 'objective' process that gave priority to 'runs on the board' in similar roles, and to then make a call on whether it was a successful appointment. In Australian football for instance, I can think of cases of both methods that have been very successful and complete disasters. There are so many other variables in play as well as decided whether a coach succeeded or failed is always fraught.
 

Burgey

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Reckon it's got a ****load to do with his successful move to opener, seeing how we're seemingly intent on manufacturing openers these days.
 
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Andre

International Regular
Yet he's been successful as a captain in a variety of settings...
Can't remember him being outrageously successful with Western Australia. Can understand his success in the county circuit though, because you need someone with that sort of extreme intensity when you are playing cricket 6 days a week to keep you going.

At Test level players are far more capable of looking after themselves.

I have no problem with Langer as such; he might just be better suited to a different role where he isn't with one side on a constant basis. He would possibly be a good age-group cricket mentor, for example.
 

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