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Thread: The vicious circle of England's ODI ineptitude

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    Cricket Web Owner James's Avatar
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    The vicious circle of England's ODI ineptitude

    The vicious circle of England's ODI ineptitude
    England recently did rather better than expected in the ICC Champions Trophy. But the ODI side has been going nowhere for a long while now, and in addition to the fact that there is much indifference to the format, meaning few players excel, selectorial incompetence has played a considerable part.
    by Richard Dickinson



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    International Coach Zinzan's Avatar
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    Can't believe the writer has tarnished David Gower with the same brush as the likes of Butcher, Atherton & Vaughan when discussing batsman who weren't well suited to the one-day game. Gower played some of the great one-day innings in the 1980s & his career strike-rate of 75 was outstanding compared to the par strike-rate in his generation of about 60.

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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    There is a relationship between FC and ODIs but there is also a relationship between OD and ODIs. Neither can really be separated. It has to be look at as a whole.

    As a rule of thumb (and this like any rule is not hard and fast but should be used as a guideline rather than a template) players that do decently in both forms will do well in ODIs. Specialists dont really work.

    Since 1992, 9 of the 10 players with the highest ODI batting average (20+ ODIs) for England have FC bat av of 40+ and OD bat av of 35+ (Collingwood being the odd-man out).

    Those that have done badly have do not have the same combined numbers.

    I dont know the answer, but how many current England-qualified players fit that description? Id be interested in how many fit the bill.
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    Hall of Fame Member superkingdave's Avatar
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    Whilst i might disagree with a few little things in the article, I think im pretty much in agreement on the whole, good article Richard
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    'A side featuring Strauss (as captain), Pietersen, Jonathan Trott, Steven Davies or Craig Kieswetter (as wicketkeeper), Flintoff, Morgan, Collingwood, Mascarenhas, Swann, Broad and Sidebottom (one of Trott or the wicketkeeper would have to open the batting, despite probably being of most use at four) is considerably superior to anything England have had since 2000,

    when Trescothick, Stewart, Hick, Thorpe, Hussain, Flintoff, Craig White, Mark Ealham, Andrew Caddick, Gough and Alan Mullally lined-up together'


    From 2000 those players played together for about 18 months and won 11 matches and lost 18. Of the 11 they won, 7 were against Zimbabwe.

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    International Coach G.I.Joe's Avatar
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    I can't decide if the first post is about the article, or James pushing some England merchandise on the CW shop.

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    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Very good article with an extremely high level of analysis that you won't often see on Cricinfo or in a Newspaper. I agree with a large majority of what was said and enjoy the quietly optimistic tone to the England ODI teams future (provided selectors get their act together and get out of the 1970s).
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    Baseless self-indulgence. We haven't produced enough international class cricketers for a long time and no selection policy is going to change that or have a great effect on results over a long period.

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    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    I think the article betrays quite a few of its author's own preconceptions and slips into his old habit of presenting his own opinion as a fact. For an example of both,

    "it is far, far better to pick an accurate bowler who cannot bowl wicket-taking deliveries than an inaccurate bowler who looks like he can bowl wicket-taking deliveries (or even an inaccurate one who actually can)."

    It is? Why? Whether or not one agrees such a statement shouldn't be allowed to stand without some qualification.

    I think a good sub-editor could've halved the word count and retained the meaning too; I counted three unnecessarily split infinitives in one sentence.

    A conserversation starter tho, if nothing else.
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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    I think the article betrays quite a few of its author's own preconceptions and slips into his old habit of presenting his own opinion as a fact.
    Yup, and deliberately so in this case.
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    International Debutant Dissector's Avatar
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    In the last few years England's ODI performances have been inconsistent but hardly terrible. On the plus side there have been away wins against Australia and Sri Lanka, home wins against India and South Africa and the recent semi-final spot. England doesn't have a great talent pool in any form of the game so there is no particular reason to expect better.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinzan12 View Post
    Can't believe the writer has tarnished David Gower with the same brush as the likes of Butcher, Atherton & Vaughan when discussing batsman who weren't well suited to the one-day game. Gower played some of the great one-day innings in the 1980s & his career strike-rate of 75 was outstanding compared to the par strike-rate in his generation of about 60.
    Gower was an infinitely lesser ODI batsman than Test. Yes, he wasn't completely hopeless (the way Vaughan, for example, was), but even he himself stated that he disliked the one-day game and that it wasn't suited to the way he batted. Yes, he may have played the odd good innings but the simple fact of the matter is that he, like so many, was a far better long-form player than short.

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    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    I think the article betrays quite a few of its author's own preconceptions and slips into his old habit of presenting his own opinion as a fact.
    The exact same problems I had with it - the continued ignorance of wicket-taking as a means of slowing the opposition down isn't unexpected, but is disappointing that it can be taken onto the front page of the site and presented as fact.

    Also the suggestion that Davies would be better suited at 4 is an odd one...
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    International Coach Pothas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    I think the article betrays quite a few of its author's own preconceptions and slips into his old habit of presenting his own opinion as a fact. For an example of both,

    "it is far, far better to pick an accurate bowler who cannot bowl wicket-taking deliveries than an inaccurate bowler who looks like he can bowl wicket-taking deliveries (or even an inaccurate one who actually can)."

    It is? Why? Whether or not one agrees such a statement shouldn't be allowed to stand without some qualification.

    I think a good sub-editor could've halved the word count and retained the meaning too; I counted three unnecessarily split infinitives in one sentence.

    A conserversation starter tho, if nothing else.
    Not like this is alien to professional journalism (just look at a certain Jan Moir).

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    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pothas View Post
    Not like this is alien to professional journalism (just look at a certain Jan Moir).
    I'd rather not, tbh.

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