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Thread: Ponting better than Sachin : Ian Chappell

  1. #31
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    I dont think it has been stated enough to be called overstated. if you compare the aggregate averages from the 90s with the 00s, the current era is definitely easier for batters.

    90s: 31.64
    00s: 34.08

    a difference of 2.5 runs shows that it is possible for a batsman to average more in the last 10 years than the decade before.

    but despite this, ponting's superiority over tendulkar (and everyone else) for most of this decade should be accepted without any grumbling. only while juxtaposing their overall careers the nature of wickets in this era gets taken into account apart from other factors and puts tendulkar well ahead of ricky.
    Oh this is true for sure, pitches are certainly much flatter this decade. It's only in the context of this argument that it's overstated, because there's an implicit assumption that Ponting only played during the 2000s and Tendulkar only played during the 1990s.

    The aggregate average for the duration of Tendulkar's career (i.e. since his debut) is 30.92, while Ponting's equivalent in Australia is 31.19. That's a much more accurate analysis of the relative difficulties of batting during their respective careers IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    The Filth have comfortably the better bowling. But the Gash have the batting. Might be quite good to watch.

  2. #32
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    there's an implicit assumption that Ponting only played during the 2000s and Tendulkar only played during the 1990s.
    i get your point. that assumption is wrong. sachin is still playing and ponting played for at least 5 years when the pitches were different from now. this argument about the pitches should only be seen from the context that sachin's peak was in the late 90s and ponting's was in the mid 00s. if they had both made their debuts together in 89 sachin would probably average 2 runs more than ricky now after 20 years. if they had started their careers in '96 then sachin would have averaged 4 runs more than ponting. it so happened that sachin started in 89 and ponting in 96. so ponting averages 1.5 to 2 runs more than sachin.

  3. #33
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    i get your point. that assumption is wrong. sachin is still playing and ponting played for at least 5 years when the pitches were different from now. this argument about the pitches should only be seen from the context that sachin's peak was in the late 90s and ponting's was in the mid 00s. if they had both made their debuts together in 89 sachin would probably average 2 runs more than ricky now after 20 years. if they had started their careers in '96 then sachin would have averaged 4 runs more than ponting. it so happened that sachin started in 89 and ponting in 96. so ponting averages 1.5 to 2 runs more than sachin.
    Where are your numbers coming from?

  4. #34
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    I dont think it has been stated enough to be called overstated. if you compare the aggregate averages from the 90s with the 00s, the current era is definitely easier for batters.

    90s: 31.64
    00s: 34.08

    a difference of 2.5 runs shows that it is possible for a batsman to average more in the last 10 years than the decade before.
    Big point: Ponting averaged better against the better bowling sides in the 90s. It's actually his smashing of everybody else that puts him over the edge in the 00s.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    ricky's record in india is bad. so dont call his record "complete". failing in one test playing nation is not as pardonable as failing against a country on home conditions (example: sachin against SA at home).
    Why? If anything, you have more reason to fail away from home than at home. That's why having high away averages is impressive.

    it is obvious that sachin can bat in india because he has done well in home conditions. he has also scored 3 hundreds in SA. ricky can play indian bowling; we know that because he scores very well against them in australia. but he is pathetic in india. though it is not a crime and i am not asking for his head, u cant say his record is more complete. ponting does have some unfinished business.
    It's also obvious that Ponting can bat in places very similar to India because the only place he fails in the subcontinent - in fact, anywhere - is in only India. Conversely, we know Sachin can't play S.Africa, not even at home nor even away. He has a sub-40 average in both instances and in the 20s at home IIRC.

    Ricky has a more complete record, it's that simple. The only two countries he averages less than 50 against is India (47) and England (48). Sachin averages 35 against S.Africa andand 42 against Pakistan - where if they hadn't fallen to bits post 2000 he'd average similar against them too.
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  5. #35
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Ugh. The idea that scoring an equal amount of runs against each team is fundamentally better than scoring more heavily against some teams, even when the overall number of runs is the same, is such bull****. And it seems to be the basis for a lot of Ikki's thinking.

  6. #36
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Ugh. The idea that scoring an equal amount of runs against each team is fundamentally better than scoring more heavily against some teams, even when the overall number of runs is the same, is such bull****. And it seems to be the basis for a lot of Ikki's thinking.
    I am not talking about the amounts of runs, I am talking about averages. Ponting scores against everybody, pretty much everywhere, except in India. When you are averaging virtually 50+ everywhere, then that is an ideal record. How can you even begin to critique that (rhetorical question)?

    He has a great record against virtually every team. If I were to average 70 against Bangladesh and 40 against England and you 60 against Bangladesh and 50 against England; which is the better record? Saying they've both scored the same amount of runs is, frankly, missing the point. So concentrating on aggregate runs scored is about as useful as concentrating on aggregate wickets taken. With reasoning like that you can say Kumble is better than Marshall. So I am not sure what you're even talking about.
    Last edited by Ikki; 15-10-2009 at 06:40 AM.

  7. #37
    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    Saw this title and thought, "I hope the guy who makes effigies has got his stock delivery for this week".

    Smacks of the typical column a commentator puts out because he's got nothing particularly insightful or relevant to discuss this week, but is expected to put a column in anyway. They're both geniuses of the modern game - they're on a plain where any judgement will have an element of subjectivity in it.

    I'm just happy I got to see both of them in their prime, will be something to look back on fondly when I'm an old(er) fart.
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  8. #38
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Ponting scores against everybody, pretty much everywhere, except in India. When you are averaging virtually 50+ everywhere, then that is an ideal record. How can you even begin to critique that (rhetorical question)?

    He has a great record against virtually every team. If I were to average 70 against Bangladesh and 40 against England and you 60 against Bangladesh and 50 against England; which is the better record? Saying they've both scored the same amount of runs is, frankly, missing the point. So concentrating on aggregate runs scored is about as useful as concentrating on aggregate wickets taken. With reasoning like that you can say Kumble is better than Marshall. So I am not sure what you're even talking about.
    It makes no difference whether I average 60 against South Africa and 40 against Australia or 50 against both. I'm contributing the same amount to my team either way. It's a statistical curiosity, nothing more.

  9. #39
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    It makes no difference whether I average 60 against South Africa and 40 against Australia or 50 against both. I'm contributing the same amount to my team either way. It's a statistical curiosity, nothing more.
    It does, otherwise by that same logic it also makes no difference whether you are averaging 70 against S.Africa and 30 against Australia. The same too then goes for home and away record, I guess. To sum it up as a simple curiosity insults the intelligence of anyone who actually follows the game.
    Last edited by Ikki; 15-10-2009 at 06:50 AM.

  10. #40
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    I'll stop insulting your intelligence then.
    Last edited by Uppercut; 15-10-2009 at 06:53 AM.

  11. #41
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    No, I'd rather you try to argue it and see how far you can dig. Because siding with your point makes my argument even stronger; as Ricky's record is still superior because overall he averages 47 against India, (79 in Aus and 21 in India). But no, I wouldn't begin to use that as reason because it pretty much ignores what an average of 50 or more actually signifies and what an average of 50 or more against a country usually entails, compared to one of 40.
    Last edited by Ikki; 15-10-2009 at 07:20 AM.

  12. #42
    International Debutant Black_Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    but I can't help but feel the "Ponting played only on flat pitches" is quite badly overstated.
    I guess people who make that claim missed his 156 at Old Trafford in 2005.

  13. #43
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    Ponting and Tendulkar are close enough that I don't see what's wrong with a commentator holding the opinion that either is better than the other.

    For me, I think Ponting is better, but perhaps that's because it's coincidence that I've been watching TV when he's played some of his most critical innings, and so they stick in my mind, which is not the case so much for Tendulkar.

  14. #44
    International Regular Josh's Avatar
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    Proof to never listen to a word that d***head Ian Chappell says.

  15. #45
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki
    Why? If anything, you have more reason to fail away from home than at home. That's why having high away averages is impressive.
    ponting has failed in india and done well against them only at home... sachin has scored 3 hundreds against SA in SA and failed only at home against them.... doesnt that make sachin's record against SA better than ponting's against india?

    i am getting caught in this debate...

    this is a seaming wicket. the ball is new; four slips and two gullies in place. and the star bowler pitches the ball up around off stump, just a shade short of good length. the ball moves off the pitch a few inches outside the off stump and continues to moves towards first slip. i should shoulder arms and leave the ball untouched. this is a good debate for me to not get involved in.

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