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Thread: The defintion of "pressure" for batsmen in a test match

  1. #31
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamee999 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post
    I disagree, how a team handles pressure comes down to the individuals that make up that team and how the team management etc deals with pressure situations. A team isn't a non-living entity, it's made up of 11 individuals + background staff. If a feeling of panic spreads through the team when they're reduced to something like 4/2 then they're in all sorts of trouble. Then you have what happened to England when they were rolled for 51.
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  2. #32
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Okay let's begin:

    C. Bannerman 165
    pressure: NUFAN, Prince EWS
    not pressure

    Reason: Wickets tumbling, first ever test match, knew who his relatives in the future was going to be.



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  3. #33
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    How each individual handles pressure - or is able to completely avert any of it - makes no difference to how any one other does. Cricket is a team game played by individuals - at any one point it's only ever one batsman against one bowler.

    Yes, if panic spreads through a team when they lose a couple of early wickets then that can compound tricky situations. But an entire team cannot handle pressure, because a) they don't play together as a team, it's each man for himself as he faces the delivery and b) each individual will not be feeling equally under pressure.
    In a team game I think it does to some extent.
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  4. #34
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    How each individual handles pressure - or is able to completely avert any of it - makes no difference to how any one other does. Cricket is a team game played by individuals - at any one point it's only ever one batsman against one bowler.

    Yes, if panic spreads through a team when they lose a couple of early wickets then that can compound tricky situations. But an entire team cannot handle pressure, because a) they don't play together as a team, it's each man for himself as he faces the delivery and b) each individual will not be feeling equally under pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post
    In a team game I think it does to some extent.
    Not just in a team game, but in all forms of life. If one person is under pressure it can have a huge knock-on effect, I'm talking at work, I'm talking at home, etc/
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  5. #35
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    There's no doubt that someone can "pick up" a feeling of, well, some sort of negative (be it panic, disappointment, worry, fret etc.) from someone else but equally how much one does that is as unique to the individual as how much one feels pressure on one's own.

    I really don't think there's any way you can quantify "the team is under pressure".

  6. #36
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Just because the game ends in a draw doesn't mean that any innings played weren't done so under pressure, though. Thinking of Ponting's knock at Old Trafford here as the first example.
    You're right, obviously. I was just suggesting that maybe runs scored in results would be a better sample than runs scored in all matches. You'd obviously cut out some good innings, but the overall proportion of under-pressure runs would be greater in the results-only sample.

    Just maybe.
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  7. #37
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    It also punishes some teams. For example, I am 100% sure that if India had Australia's attack during the 90s (or even an average attack) and most of this decade, many the matches that were draws would have been wins for India.... Conversely, all of Bangladeshi centuries, for example, would count, even though many of those matches would be a draw if they were a better team.

    Either way, it's not the batsmen doing anything different.

    The only way to check would be to look at the pitch itself and make a determination on whether there was any chance of a draw at all. But looking at how few draws the Aussie side participated in, it tells you a lot of what you need to know about that.
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  8. #38
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    All these posts tell you is that sweeping generalisations are always going to have plenty of imperfections, and will allow very fair objections to be made when you're trying to use them to prove something.

  9. #39
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Have decided to go with a "pressure average" for batsmen and bowlers as part of my analysis of Test Players.

    What forced my hand is having Ken Barrington at no.9 in my alltime test batsmen list, when I have the feeling he scored so many runs in bore draws and large wins.

    New criteria: batsmen
    a) Team lost the match
    b) Team won the match by 99 runs or less/5 wickets or less. If they won by more, then the match can still be defined as a pressure match if they were behind on the first innings.
    c) Drew the match after following on (can someone find where a list of matches where this happens is on the internet. Cricinfo doesn't have that list. Would be very useful). Hanif Mohammad played the most famous innings in this criteria.
    d) Drew the match after being 100 or more runs behind on the first innings. Ponting at Manchester comes to mind here.
    e) Drew the match when only 3 or less wickets were needed for a result. Again, Manchester 2005 or Cardiff 2009.


    New criteria: bowlers
    a) Team lost the match
    b) Team won the match by 99 runs or less/5 wickets or less. If they won by more, then the match can still be defined as a pressure match if they were behind by 100 runs or more on the first innings.
    c) All draws. I figure that for bowlers, draws are where bowling conditions are on the whole the most difficult since not enough wickets can be taken to force a result.

    Let me know what you think.

    It is goign to be madness looking at every single win or draw in a team's history, but so be it. A little craziness never hurt anyone.
    Last edited by Days of Grace; 21-10-2009 at 12:35 AM.

  10. #40
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    What about drawing the match due to weather, or maybe only a day was available, instead of, say, two and a half days.

    Also, in a draw, the bowlers could just be on a team with other crappy bowlers and thus unable to get a win. E.g, India. If the other team is up by, say 250+ runs after the first innings, there is really almost no pressure on the bowlers, the game is gone anyway.
    Last edited by silentstriker; 20-10-2009 at 10:25 PM.

  11. #41
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Okay let's begin:

    C. Bannerman 165
    pressure: NUFAN, Prince EWS
    not pressure

    Reason: Wickets tumbling, first ever test match, knew who his relatives in the future was going to be.

    Hah, classic.
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  12. #42
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post

    Also, in a draw, the bowlers could just be on a team with other crappy bowlers and thus unable to get a win. E.g, India. If the other team is up by, say 250+ runs after the first innings, there is really almost no pressure on the bowlers, the game is gone anyway.

    Yes, but that one good bowler is being put under "pressure" because of the other crap bowlers, is he not?

    Basically, I will be looking at batting and bowling averages for when one's team is struggling in a match.
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  13. #43
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    Have decided to go with a "pressure average" for batsmen and bowlers as part of my analysis of Test Players.

    What forced my hand is having Ken Barrington at no.9 in my alltime test batsmen list, when I have the feeling he scored so many runs in bore draws and large wins.

    New criteria: batsmen
    a) Team lost the match
    b) Team won the match by 99 runs or less/5 wickets or less. If they won by more, then the match can still be defined as a pressure match if they were behind on the first innings.
    c) Drew the match after following on (can someone find where a list of matches where this happens is on the internet. Cricinfo doesn't have that list. Would be very useful). Hanif Mohammad played the most famous innings in this criteria.
    d) Drew the match after being 100 or more runs behind on the first innings. Ponting at Manchester comes to mind here.
    e) Drew the match when only 3 or less wickets were needed for a result. Again, Manchester 2005 or Cardiff 2009.


    New criteria: bowlers
    a) Team lost the match
    b) Team won the match by 99 runs or less/5 wickets or less. If they won by more, then the match can still be defined as a pressure match if they were behind by 100 runs or more on the first innings.
    c) All draws. I figure that for bowlers, draws are where bowling conditions are on the whole the most difficult since not enough wickets can be taken to force a result.

    Let me know what you think.

    It is goign to be madness looking at every single win or draw in a team's history, but so be it. A little craziness never hurt anyone.
    I'll say it again - it's admirable that you try to do this, but I think what you're attempting is realistically impossible to achieve without plenty of reasonable objections.

  14. #44
    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    c) Drew the match after following on (can someone find where a list of matches where this happens is on the internet. Cricinfo doesn't have that list. Would be very useful). Hanif Mohammad played the most famous innings in this criteria.
    .
    I haven't helped completely but I found this stat:
    Tests Won Lost Drawn Winning %
    Follow-on enforced 260 198 3 59 73.88

    This was in Aug 2004, so there is 59 matches where a draw is the result after enforcing the follow on.

    From this website Follow-on: to enforce or not

  15. #45
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Thanks mate.

    I think the pressure average for batsmen is worth researching.

    However, I want to get your opinion on whether a games won average is better for bowlers, since bowlers win test matches on the most part.

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