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Thread: *Official* UK off-season 2009/10

  1. #16
    International Vice-Captain Jungle Jumbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    C'mon Rich have a heart - if I could play the game well enough to be a journeyman county pro I'm sure I'd have done it for as long as I could and never given hope of progressing

    A mate of mine's younger brother is assistant pro at a local golf club - he's 31 and has never got near the European tour yet - I made the mistake of saying to him once words to the effect of "but it's not as if you'll ever win the Open" ...... Ouch
    AWTA 100%. Live the dream.

  2. #17
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Jumbo View Post
    I'd agree that counties probably have too many players on their books, but 13-14 appears a bit unrealistic. You can't have decent competition for places or a squad to match all conditions or strength in depth with that number. 18 would suit me fine. But many of the players you criticise below are more or less first team cricketers anyway. So those that we don't see are certainly to be worse. Plus there would be far less incentive for late developers or fringe players to even attempt to play professional cricket if there was no security. There would have to be a dramatic reform of the county game for this to change.
    I made a list last season of players I considered were worthy and not of full-time contracts and "rookie" (ie, the Australian way of giving some reward to promising upcomers - enough to feel like relative riches at a young age - without breaking the bank). I posted it too - won't do so this season as it engendered far too much silly bickering, some of which I think you might just remember. But I'd say each county on average has 6-8 players of unquestionable first-team worth who should be playing full terms each year barring injury, then generally nearly twice the number who are pretty clearly never going to amount to much (I'd say 2-3 good years in someone's late-20s\early-30s is not really an investment worth making in terms of 10 years of paying for doing dreadfully). Maybe 13-14 is an unrealistic expectation, but I honestly don't believe there are more than that number per county in this country whose excellence at cricket merits any form of payment, full-time or incremental. It frankly astounds me that there are people I've grown-up with whose clubs offer them some form of financial incentive for runs\wickets.
    Don't really buy this either. I'm not sure putting the amount of money saved from signing additional overseas pros etc would really improve the best young players who are coming through. In this country, the best talent is found and snapped up - it's not India or Pakistan where players will appear from nowhere. It might raise the standard of league cricket or youh cricket, but not much else.
    The best talent (of those who are interested, anyway) may indeed mostly be found and snapped-up but there's absolutely no doubt it's often not nurtured as well as it could be. More investment in grass-roots coaching and practice facilities would go some way to remedying this.

    And I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase "work up from the bottom" (or similar). Raise the standard of league and youth cricket and you have the spur to excellence. It's precisely why Australia's cricket system has been the best in world cricket since, well, time immemorial pretty much.
    Many cricketers stay in cricket and gain coaching qualifications while they play. There's all the UCCE system which many of the 'mediocre' players that you criticise will have come through, which ensures that they have some sort of qualification for the future. And if they don't have the potential to forge a degree-based or A-Level based career after their county career, however short it may be, then it's unlikely that the additional 10 years of employment will have really improved their earnings.
    Aren't you just moreorless agreeing with me here? I can't find anything that really contradicts what I was saying.
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  3. #18
    International Vice-Captain Jungle Jumbo's Avatar
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    WRT the final bit (said all I want to about the other bit) - no, it's fundamentally different to your point. You're saying that by "delaying the inevitable" players are only hurting or not furthering their own chances in life; I'm saying that they may as well give it a go because if it doesn't work, even over a long-term period, they'll either by helped by forging a career in the game post-playing, or have a degree they gained while playing high-level uni cricket that they can put into practice and gain employment, or take up a job that isn't really rewarded by long service.

  4. #19
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    I think 18 is the ideal number for a squad in county cricket. Your firsts team, plus a back up keeper, spinner, and 2 batsman and 3 seamers, or vica-verca.

    Now I don't really know what's going on here, and I don't follow county cricket near as much as I would like to, but from what I've read, I mostly agree with Richard, except for the part where he said something along the lines of you'd rather play Saturday cricket and rip it up (yes, I know he said Sunday, but I'm changing it up to the Australian way), and work the other 5 days of the week. Playing a higher level cricket is more beneficial, probably more finiancially beneficial until you retire, and you obviously would learn more, and have more of a challenge. If I could play first grade and average 50, or play first class cricket for NSW (or any other state, I don't care as long as it gets me to that level), and average 25-30 (I'm obviously talking about batting), then I'd much rather do that. The coaching, people you meet, opportunities to do things, etc, would be so much better than working a boring job for 5 or more days a week and playing on a Saturday.


  5. #20
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Jumbo View Post
    WRT the final bit (said all I want to about the other bit) - no, it's fundamentally different to your point. You're saying that by "delaying the inevitable" players are only hurting or not furthering their own chances in life; I'm saying that they may as well give it a go because if it doesn't work, even over a long-term period, they'll either by helped by forging a career in the game post-playing, or have a degree they gained while playing high-level uni cricket that they can put into practice and gain employment, or take up a job that isn't really rewarded by long service.
    I'm not neccessarily saying players are hurting their chances of later-life employment; I'm saying they can't possibly benefit them and could conceivably damage them.

    I'm saying that if a cricketer has failed to make it (talking clearly, obviously not up to it) by the age of 23-24 then I'd prefer them to go off and do something else. I think that's the best option for them and it's certainly the best option for the game.

    The fact that many players who turn-out pretty useless at county level have played UCCE cricket beforehand, gaining a degree at the same time, so thus have some sort of insurance policy before diving headfirst into the game, in fact is an aide to the process of trial-and-elimination that I tend to favour.

  6. #21
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Where did you copy-paste that from?
    Not copied and pasted at all. I just read those signings off CricInfo.
    5-0

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  7. #22
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    So what was the URL of the page you read... then copy-pasted from?

  8. #23
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    I didn't copy and paste anything. And the URL's are various.

    Sounds like you have too much time on your hands....

  9. #24
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Anyway I fancied having a proper in-depth look at season 2008, so I did. And I mean, looking at the quality of player and where they came from. If you can be bothered to read through all of this (unlikely, I know), let me know which ones you disagree about. To avoid confusion - every player who took the field in a First-Class game is included, even if it was just once or twice. And assessments are made based on long-term performance, not purely on this season.

    Key:
    A-1: proven high-calibre British\Irish players - home-grown. * = played limited first-team cricket in season.
    A-2: proven high-calibre British\Irish or European players - imported. * = played limited first-team cricket in season (brackets = mid-season signing).
    B-1: promising young British\Irish players - home-grown.
    B-2: promising young British\Irish or European players - imported (brackets = loan signing).
    C-1: proven high-calibre overseas \ EU-passport \ Kolpak \ British-passport-of-convenience players. * = played limited first-team cricket in season.
    C-2: lesser overseas \ EU-passport \ Kolpak \ British-passport-of-convenience players who do nothing for the game.
    D-1: poor-quality British\Irish players who do nothing for the game - home-grown.
    D-2: poor-quality British\Irish or European players who do nothing for the game - imports from a minor county or who never played for their home county.
    D-3: poor-quality British\Irish or European players who do nothing for the game who for some reason have got contracts with second or even third counties (brackets = loan signing).
    E: backup wicketkeeper.

    Derbyshire:
    A-1: Stephen Stubbings*, Kevin Dean*.
    A-2: Daniel Birch, Rikki Clarke, James Pipe.
    B-1: Paul Borrington, Daniel Redfern.
    B-2: Frederik Klokker, Jonathan Clare, (Tom New).
    C-1: Chris Rogers, Wavell Hinds, Charl Langeveldt.
    C-2: Greg Smith, Dominic Telo.
    D-1: Tom Lungley, Jake Needham, Wayne White, Ross Whiteley.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: John Sadler, Graham Wagg, Ian Hunter, Nayan Doshi, (Mark Lawson).
    E: Tom Poynton.
    Durham:
    A-1: Paul Collingwood*, Stephen Harmison, Mark Davies, Neil Killeen*.
    A-2: William Smith.
    B-1: none.
    B-2: none.
    C-1: Neil McKenzie, Albie Morkel, Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Michael di Venuto, Dale Benkenstein.
    C-2: Garry Park, Paul Wiseman, Mitchell Claydon, Callum Thorp.
    D-1: Michael Stoneman, Ben Harmison, Gordon Muchall, Kyle Koetzer, Philip Mustard, Liam Plunkett, Graham Onions.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: none.
    Essex:
    A-1: Alastair Cook*, Ravinder Bopara, Mark Pettini, James Foster.
    A-2: Jason Gallian, James Middlebrook, David Masters.
    B-1: Varun Chopra, Tom Westley, Jaik Mickleburgh, Antonio Palladino.
    B-2: none.
    C-1: Andre Nel, Danish Kaneria, Grant Flower*, Ryan ten Doeschate, (Neil Dexter).
    C-2: none.
    D-1: Graham Napier, Tim Phillips, Maurice Chambers, Jahid Ahmed.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: John Maunders, Alex Tudor, Chris Wright.
    E: Adam Wheater.
    Glamorgan:
    A-1: Michael Powell, David Hemp, Robert Croft, Mark Wallace, Dean Cosker.
    A-2: Matthew Wood, Jamie Dalrymple.
    B-1: Gareth Rees, Tom Maynard, James Harris.
    B-2: Adam Shantry.
    C-1: Jason Gillespie.
    C-2: none.
    D-1: Richard Grant, Ryan Watkins, Huw Waters, David Harrison.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: Alex Wharf.
    Gloucestershire:
    A-1: Chris Taylor, Jonathan Lewis.
    A-2: none.
    B-1: none.
    B-2: William Porterfield, Kadeer Ali, Stephen Snell, David Brown.
    C-1: Marcus North, Craig Spearman*, Hamish Marshall.
    C-2: Grant Hodnett.
    D-1: Mark Hardinges, Alex Gidman, William Rudge, Ian Saxelby.
    D-2: Matt Gitsham, Vikram Banerjee.
    D-3: Ian Fisher, Richard Dawson, Stephen Kirby, Carl Greenidge, (Robert Woodman, Oliver Newby, David Wigley, Andrew Harris).
    E: Stephen Adshead.
    Hampshire:
    A-1: Dimitri Mascarenhas, Chris Tremlett.
    A-2: Michael Carberry, John Crawley*, Kevin Pietersen*.
    B-1: Liam Dawson.
    B-2: none.
    C-1: Shane Bond, Mornantau Hayward, Rory Kleinveldt, Imran Tahir, Sean Ervine, Nic Pothas.
    C-2: none.
    D-1: James Adams, Christopher Benham, James Tomlinson, David Griffiths, Hamza Riazuddin.
    D-2: Michael Brown, Greg Lamb, David Balcombe.
    D-3: Michael Lumb.
    E: Tom Burrows.
    Kent:
    A-1: Robert Key, Matthew Walker*, Geraint Jones, Robert Joseph.
    A-2: Darren Stevens, Martin Saggers.
    B-1: Joe Denly.
    B-2: none.
    C-1: Yasir Arafat, Martin van Jaarsveld, Neil Dexter*, Justin Kemp*, Azhar Mahmood*, Ryan McLaren.
    C-2: none.
    D-1: James Tredwell.
    D-2: Amjad Khan.
    D-3: none.
    Lancashire:
    A-1: Paul Horton, Mark Chilton*, Andrew Flintoff*, Glen Chapple, James Anderson*.
    A-2: Iain Sutcliffe*, Mal Loye*, Luke Sutton, Dominic Cork.
    B-1: Karl Brown, Steven Croft, Steven Mullaney, Kyle Hogg, Tom Smith, Simon Marshall.
    B-2: none.
    C-1: Brad Hodge, Mohammad Yousuf, Lou Vincent, Stuart Law, Francois du Plessis.
    C-2: none.
    D-1: Gary Keedy, Sajid Mahmood, Oliver Newby.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: none.
    E: Gareth Cross.
    Leicestershire:
    A-1: Paul Nixon.
    A-2: none.
    B-1: Tom New, Matthew Boyce, Greg Smith, Joshua Cobb, (Tom Smith, Lee Daggett).
    B-2: James Taylor, Johan Malcolm-Hansen.
    C-1: Boeta Dippenaar, Hylton Ackerman, James Allenby, Claude Henderson, Jermaine Lawson*, Dillon du Preez, Garnett Kruger.
    C-2: Jacques du Toit.
    D-1: Ryan Cummins, Sam Cliff, Jigar Naik.
    D-2: Daniel Rowe.
    D-3: Nadeem Malik.
    Middlesex:
    A-1: Andrew Strauss*, Owais Shah, Nick Compton*, Ben Scott.
    A-2: Ed Smith*, Ed Joyce, Shaun Udal, Chris Silverwood*, Alan Richardson.
    B-1: Billy Godleman, Daniel Housego.
    B-2: Eoin Morgan, Dawid Malan.
    C-1: Vernon Philander, Murali Kartik.
    C-2: Gareth Berg, Dirk Nannes.
    D-1: Danny Evans, Steven Finn, Christopher Peploe.
    D-2: David Burton.
    D-3: Tim Murtagh, (Mark Lawson).
    E: David Nash.
    Northamptonshire:
    A-1: Monty Panesar.
    A-2: David Sales, Stephen Peters, Niall O'Brien.
    B-1: Alex Wakeley, Ben Howgego, Mark Nelson.
    B-2: none.
    C-1: Johann Louw, Andrew Hall, Lance Klusener, Nico Boje, Johannes van der Wath, Riki Wessels.
    C-2: Andrew Crook, Steven Crook.
    D-1: Shaun Bailey, Graeme White.
    D-2: Robert White.
    D-3: David Lucas, David Wigley, Richard Logan.
    Nottinghamshire:
    A-1: Samit Patel, Chris Read, Paul Franks.
    A-2: Matthew Wood, Mark Wagh, Mark Ealham, Graeme Swann, Ryan Sidebottom*.
    B-1: Bilal Shafayat, Luke Fletcher.
    B-2: Stuart Broad.
    C-1: Adam Voges, Ashwell Prince, Andre Adams, Darren Pattinson.
    C-2: none.
    D-1: none.
    D-2: Charles Shreck.
    D-3: William Jefferson, Robert Ferley, Andrew Harris.
    Somerset:
    A-1: Marcus Trescothick.
    A-2: Ian Blackwell, Andy Caddick.
    B-1: James Hildreth.
    B-2: Craig Kieswetter.
    C-1: Justin Langer, Zander de Bruyn, Alfonso Thomas, Charl Willoughby.
    C-2: none.
    D-1: Neil Edwards, Wesley Durston, Arul Suppiah, Peter Trego, Michael Munday.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: John Francis, Steffan Jones, Ben Phillips, Mark Turner.
    E: Carl Gazzard.
    Surrey:
    A-1: Mark Butcher, Scott Newman, Alastair Brown, James Benning.
    A-2: Mark Ramprakash, Usman Afzaal, Jonathan Batty.
    B-1: Matthew Spriegel, Chris Murtagh, Tom Jewell, Stuart Meaker.
    B-2: none.
    C-1: Matthew Nicholson, Abdur Razzaq, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain Mushtaq, Murtaza Hussain, Pedro Collins.
    C-2: Stewart Walters, Chris Jordan.
    D-1: Alex Tudor, Jade Dernbach.
    D-2: Lee Hodgson.
    D-3: Richard Clinton, James Ormond, Chris Schofield.
    Sussex:
    A-1: Michael Yardy, Matthew Prior, Robin Martin-Jenkins, James Kirtley, Jason Lewry.
    A-2: Chris Adams.
    B-1: Chris Nash, Michael Thornley, Oliver Rayner, William Beer.
    B-2: Luke Wright, Rory Hamilton-Brown.
    C-1: Mushtaq Ahmed*, Mohammad Sami, Murray Goodwin, Corey Collymore.
    C-2: Ryan Harris, Raghab Aga.
    D-1: Carl Hopkinson.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: Christopher Liddle.
    E: Andrew Hodd.
    Warwickshire:
    A-1: Michael Powell, Ian Westwood, Ian Bell*, Jamie Troughton.
    A-2: Darren Maddy, Jonathan Trott, Tim Ambrose*, Ian Salisbury, (Rikki Clarke).
    B-1: Nicholas James, Chris Woakes, Naqqash Tahir.
    B-2: Lee Daggett, Boyd Rankin, Calum MacLeod, Andrew Miller, Stuart Hole.
    C-1: Monde Zondeki*, Chris Martin*, Ant Botha.
    C-2: Neil Carter, Tim Groenewald.
    D-1: Luke Parker.
    D-2: Navdeep Poonia, James Anyon.
    D-3: none.
    E: Tony Frost, Richard Johnson, Michael Balac
    Worcestershire:
    A-1: Daryl Mitchell, Vikram Solanki, Steven Davies, Kabir Ali.
    A-2: Graeme Hick, Ben Smith, Gareth Batty, Simon Jones*.
    B-1: none.
    B-2: Alexei Kervezee, Moeen Ali, Imran Arif.
    C-1: Stephen Moore, Matthew Mason*.
    C-2: Steve Magoffin, Dilhara Fernando.
    D-1: Mehraj Ahmed.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: Gareth Andrew, Chris Whelan, (Andrew Harris).
    Yorkshire:
    A-1: Chris Taylor, Michael Vaughan*, Anthony McGrath, Darren Gough*, Matthew Hoggard.
    A-2: Gerard Brophy.
    B-1: Andrew Gale, Adam Lyth, Adil Rashid, Tim Bresnan, Ajmal Shahzad, Steven Patterson, Ben Sanderson, Oliver Hannon-Dalby.
    B-2: Gary Ballance
    C-1: Morne Morkel, Rana Naved-ul-Hasan*, Jacques Rudolph, Gideon Kruis.
    C-2: none.
    D-1: Joe Sayers, Rich Pyrah, David Wainwright.
    D-2: none.
    D-3: none.
    For those that are interested. Some have changed heaps though (i.e. Onions is a D1 but is now a semi-regular for England)

  10. #25
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    There was really no need to post such a long quote twice. And incidentally most of the names haven't changed, but I'll be having a look at the purely numerical categorisation and seeing how many categories have increased and how many decreased.

  11. #26
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgieb View Post
    I didn't copy and paste anything. And the URL's are various.
    I see. So where did you hear of Ealham's plans to retire, as that's not something I've come accross to date.
    Sounds like you have too much time on your hands....
    Nope, neither exercise took that long.

  12. #27
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Found out about Ealham through Corrin.

  13. #28
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DingDong View Post
    gimh has now surpassed richard as the greatest cw member ever imo

    RIP Craigos. A true CW legend. You will be missed.

  14. #29
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    Oh yeah it wasn't you! It was Stumpski! I said that there were many players calling it the quits as Butcher, Crawley & Caddick all retired within a few days of each other.

  15. #30
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Where did you hear about that David? Still nothing on any of the normal sites I can find.

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