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18 county system isn't the way forward for English cricket

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Although scoring runs @ Taunton can be a bit of an abberation, thats why Hildreth isn't taken seriously. You can't write off runs there totally or else Trescothick may have never played for England.

If England want a keeper/bat to open in ODIs or even T20s who can really take adavantage of the power-plays like a McCullum or Haddin, based on what i've seen i'd say Kiewsetter could do that for us better than Davies - who is not a power-player.
Except Davies strikes at 20 runs a ball better than Kieswetter :confused1
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, aussie, I just don't get how you can keep burying your head and saying Kieswetter scores faster than Davies, when the statistics clearly show that Davies scores so much faster. You can't argue with the facts.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
What??. It has everything to do with it. If since then 9/11 the politicans didn't streotyped them as terrorist & make them feel like inferior citizens, psycologically thats the biggest reason why most Asians don't want to represent England. You need to get out more.
I'd like a list of names of these politicians please, and notable examples of this stereotyping.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, aussie, I just don't get how you can keep burying your head and saying Kieswetter scores faster than Davies, when the statistics clearly show that Davies scores so much faster. You can't argue with the facts.
Being "more of a hitter" and being a faster scorer aren't the absolute same thing, though obviously the former does far more often than not lead to the latter, regardless of the level in question.

Nonetheless Kieswetter has always struck me as more of a power player, Davies much more based on finesse. That could have changed in recent times, and because Kieswetter is a more powerful batsman doesn't neccessarily make him better at all. But the prospect is there.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Always seen 'hitter' as a term used for a batsman that scores quickly but it is not actually very good, there have always been batsman that have been able to score just as quickly as these players.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, "hitter" is precisely that to my mind but "a big hitter" just means someone who strikes the ball a long way because they're very strong and use a big heavy bat.

Being a big hitter and being a touch, finesse player is just two different styles of getting the job done. Viv Richards was certainly a big hitter (he was of course also perfectly capable of being a touch player when he felt like it), so is Sachin Tendulkar, so is Andrew Symonds. Obviously Symonds is several million miles behind the other two but none of them would be described as "not very good".
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Being "more of a hitter" and being a faster scorer aren't the absolute same thing, though obviously the former does far more often than not lead to the latter, regardless of the level in question.

Nonetheless Kieswetter has always struck me as more of a power player, Davies much more based on finesse. That could have changed in recent times, and because Kieswetter is a more powerful batsman doesn't neccessarily make him better at all. But the prospect is there.
This, added to underlying fact that given the poor historical standard of list A cricket in this country, domestic OD runs or wickets does not equate to similar performances in ODI cricket. So Davies is highly unlikely to replicate that kind of SR in ODI if he plays, especially when he is probably on par in ability to Time Paine based on what i've seen of him.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
There is no logic to your argument. If Davies domestic performances should be discredited because you overstate how bad county cricket supposedly is, then what are you basing the case for Kieswetter on?
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
There is no logic to your argument. If Davies domestic performances should be discredited because you overstate how bad county cricket supposedly is,
I'm not saying Davies performances should be discredited. But it should be put into proper context given the poor standard of domestic bowling. Just because his SR is 116 means that he is the Gilchrist/Haddin/McCullum type ODI opener ENG have been looking for.

Secondly i'm not overstating how bad domestic OD cricket is. If it was good, England would have actually had decent ODI team over a extended period of in the 15 years.

GeraintIsMyHero said:
then what are you basing the case for Kieswetter on?
One of Three factors:

- Natural ability, just like how sub-continent players are picked. (Kieswetter would be here)

- performances in circumstances in domestic OD games where they may fast international standard bowling & look good.

- If a player is when they play ODI cricket based on domestic form, they defy the tradition of failure & the they just adapt to international cricket.

This three criteria's is basically how almost all of the few successful ODI cricket we have had in the last 10-15 years. The only exception to this rule are Gough, Caddick (to a level), Stewart & Hick, Gooch, Lamb.

If domestic OD performances always equated international success. Blokes like Ali Brown, Loye, Ealham, Alleyne, A Hollioke, Irani should have been stars. But you know what happened..
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
aussie, what makes you say Kieswetter has natural ability and not Davies?
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
This, added to underlying fact that given the poor historical standard of list A cricket in this country, domestic OD runs or wickets does not equate to similar performances in ODI cricket. So Davies is highly unlikely to replicate that kind of SR in ODI if he plays, especially when he is probably on par in ability to Time Paine based on what i've seen of him.
So Davies is not going to able to replicate his SR (and presumably you also include his average as unattainable?) yet Kieswetter will be able do that or even exceed it (in spite of his lower average much lower strike rate whilst spending half his time batting on a road)
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, pretty sure Nick Knight and Trescothick were terrible in ODI's for England tbh.
Trescothick was picked on natural ability in 2000 that Fletcher saw coming off the same somerset roads, the rest is history.

Knight is one of few players who defied "tradition" & transferred OD domestic form to the international stage.


GeraintIsMyHero said:
aussie, what makes you say Kieswetter has natural ability and not Davies?
I'm not saying Davies doesn't have natural ability, of course he does. All i'm saying in the likely role both he & Kieswetter would play in the ODI side as attacking openers - Kieswetter based on what i've seen & placing minimal relevance to domestic stats for reasons i've already said - would be better suited to that role, if the ENG selectors decide to go down that route.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
So Davies is not going to able to replicate his SR (and presumably you also include his average as unattainable?) yet Kieswetter will be able do that or even exceed it (in spite of his lower average much lower strike rate whilst spending half his time batting on a road)
Haa, you all these stats yo. Have you ever seen these two cats bat?
 

Jarquis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don't understand how you can say that despite Davies being > Kieswetter in English domestic OD cricket that Kieswetter would be better in International OD cricket?
Surely if the attacks are so bad, the quality so poor and Kieswetter so good... Kieswetter would make more runs than Davies in the same competition?
You say how rare for it is for players to transfer their domestic success onto the International stage, but surely they must have a better chance than a poorer player overperforming on the International stage?
You can't say that you'll pick an average/good player in the hope he'll be average/good over an excellent player because in the past excellent players have failed... there's undoubtedly a greater chance of the average/good player failing and if you look through history probably more of them have.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Haa, you all these stats yo. Have you ever seen these two cats bat?
You might have more of a case if it were that one scored his runs quicker than the other, but averaged less, but it's not even close on that front.

Not seen a lot of either, and I'm dubious as to how much anyone has actually seen, but if, as is being suggested here, Davies is scoring quicker without hitting sixes, surely that's a lower risk but higher gain approach?

Is it possible that Kieswetter scores more sixes because of where he plays most of his cricket? And is it actually critical that someone hits more sixes (which are by their very nature a more risky approach) when someone else can score at a faster rate without going aerial?
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
As I said, Davies has hit 3 sixes in all List A cricket this year, yet still strikes at comfortably more than a run a ball - one of only 2 players who has managed this in England this season.

Aussie's argument has no logic to it whatsoever.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
As I said, Davies has hit 3 sixes in all List A cricket this year, yet still strikes at comfortably more than a run a ball - one of only 2 players who has managed this in England this season.

Aussie's argument has no logic to it whatsoever.
I'm beginning to sense a pattern here.
 

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