Why have you decided that there is question marks over Sutcliffe and not the other players from that era that you are happy to praise. His average was over 60 for god's sake.
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All-time XI: England
- Thread starter Edged&Taken
- Start date
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
60 in a era of flat pitches & more poor bowling attacks than good one's. Bradman is the only post war batsmen give he was freak, that no questions can be asked about how he would fear in hypotetical All-time match-ups.
Haa, lame sarasm. I have no issue with Sutcliffe as a player, he clearly was great - no disputing that. But when we venture of into the hypotetical world of All-Time XI match-ups, his record like many post-war batsmen except for Bradman - becomes a problem.zaremba said:
Since it wayyy too much of stretch to pick him & expect him to have success againts types of bowlers (quality fast bowlers of 90 mph mainly) who he never faced regularly in his career.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Modern day batsmen shouldn't have to be bat on uncovered wickets, test cricket thankfully evolved from that. Just like how the LBW ruled changed & 8-ball overs where eradicated & the introduction of helmets.
Post-war batsmen in hypotetical ATXI match-ups would have to subjected to rules & regulations of test cricket as it is now. Which has been pretty similar since the 1960s excpet for the 8-ball overs in AUS & a little period of uncovered wickets.
Post-war batsmen in hypotetical ATXI match-ups would have to subjected to rules & regulations of test cricket as it is now. Which has been pretty similar since the 1960s excpet for the 8-ball overs in AUS & a little period of uncovered wickets.
archie mac
International Coach
Why?
I would like to see the modern players cope without helmets and on uncovered pitches, Langer for one would be dead
bagapath
International Captain
I would love to ask KP to carry drinks for this team and get Compton to bat in his position. Also, I would go for Peter May in place of Barrington, Alec Bedser for Larwood and Laker for Underwood.
I am perfectly okay with Sutcliffe being left out of the team. He is one of the greatest players of all time, no doubt. But in Hobbs and Hutton this team possesses possibly the greatest opening combination any all time team can put together. Sutcliffe was not known for his quick scoring. I wish Borington could also be asked to relax paving the way for Peter May who could lead the team as well.
I am perfectly okay with Sutcliffe being left out of the team. He is one of the greatest players of all time, no doubt. But in Hobbs and Hutton this team possesses possibly the greatest opening combination any all time team can put together. Sutcliffe was not known for his quick scoring. I wish Borington could also be asked to relax paving the way for Peter May who could lead the team as well.
BoyBrumby
Englishman
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Sorry aussie, cheap shot!
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Anyone see Athers' all-time England ODI team in the Times today?
Trescothick
Gooch
Gower
Pietersen
Fairbrother
Stewart
Flintoff
Botham
Gough
Underwood
Willis
Pretty damn good team, that. I would have gone for Hick (or Smith / Lamb) instead of Gower, but otherwise it's just about spot-on.
Trescothick
Gooch
Gower
Pietersen
Fairbrother
Stewart
Flintoff
Botham
Gough
Underwood
Willis
Pretty damn good team, that. I would have gone for Hick (or Smith / Lamb) instead of Gower, but otherwise it's just about spot-on.
archie mac
International Coach
I thought Gower a great ODI player, add his fine fielding and I am not sure who is better?
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
I know that Botham's record was surprisingly modest. However he could open the bowling and take wickets, and I'd like to see him batting explosively in the same middle order as Freddie. Plus I'd want him in the team because he's simply a top-class all-rounder and you can't afford to leave him out. When you look at the replacements (White, Daffy) you start to realise how true that is.
As for Gower, well I'm an enormous fan of his, and he certainly played some good ODI cricket: he had an outstanding series in 1982/83 in Australia, and was a great fielder in his youth. But I'm afraid to say I pigeon-hole him as a Test player. Hick has a better record and would offer an option with his off-spin as well. As a fielder, he had an awesome throwing arm and was IIRC a competent out-fielder. His main fielding position was at slip, of course, where he was one of the very best I've ever seen, but ironically he might well not ever get to field there in this team given the presence of Botham and Freddie. So Gower, as a specialist cover fielder, would offer more in the field to this team. All the same, I'd have Hick due to his track record with the bat in this form of the game. I think. Actually, the more I think about it the less certain I am... Erm...
As for Gower, well I'm an enormous fan of his, and he certainly played some good ODI cricket: he had an outstanding series in 1982/83 in Australia, and was a great fielder in his youth. But I'm afraid to say I pigeon-hole him as a Test player. Hick has a better record and would offer an option with his off-spin as well. As a fielder, he had an awesome throwing arm and was IIRC a competent out-fielder. His main fielding position was at slip, of course, where he was one of the very best I've ever seen, but ironically he might well not ever get to field there in this team given the presence of Botham and Freddie. So Gower, as a specialist cover fielder, would offer more in the field to this team. All the same, I'd have Hick due to his track record with the bat in this form of the game. I think. Actually, the more I think about it the less certain I am... Erm...
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bagapath
International Captain
I would probably bring lamb in place of stewart and ask tresco to keep wickets. not sure.
archie mac
International Coach
and the more I think about it the more I want Mr lamb
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Not in a million years, for me. Given the strength of the batting line-up in this team, I can see an argument for including a better keeper than Stewart (Russell / Knott) but not an infinitely worse one.
Lamb however does have a good claim for a place - maybe instead of Gower, maybe instead of Fairbrother.
Edit: Knott actually would be a damn good bet - particularly since he'd be used to keeping to Deadly. Also I can imagine the inventiveness of his batting might actually be of more use down the order than the rather more orthodox Stewart.
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
I don't see any point in Botham playing at all if he's batting at Number 8. I don't see Mr No Ball himself Bob Willis in the side either in ODI's. I don't know what Statsguru shows but Willis played at a time of much lower scoring, no balls didn't count against the bowlers analysis and no free hits. It's actually quite difficult to scrap together a decent side.
Trescothick
Gooch
Pietersen
Lamb
Fairbrother
Botham
Flintoff
Knott
Gough
Fraser
Underwood
Trescothick
Gooch
Pietersen
Lamb
Fairbrother
Botham
Flintoff
Knott
Gough
Fraser
Underwood
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Yet you cannot accept that the yesteryear batsmen will have likewise evolved?
If it's All Time surely conditions should reflect all of those faced, rather than the current identikit global pitch?
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Yep I'm perfectly happy with that team. I'd go for Hick rather than Lamb I think, but it's a six and two threes really.
I'm not sure what statsguru says about Willis either, but I can't imagine him being an easy bowler to score quickly against come what may, and he had the ability to take wickets, so I'm content to include him.