Shakib Al Hasan vs The Great All Rounders

[Red]

Shakib has been the most genuine of all-rounders throughout his career. All the other greats were mainly good at one thing.

He's been genuine in his inability to perform to a good standard with the bat against India, South Africa and England as well.

 

[cnerd123]

He's been genuine in his inability to perform to a good standard with the bat against India, South Africa and England as well.

How much did the other great ARs - Hadlee, Imran, Botham, Miller, etc - average against the top bowling attacks of their era?

Genuinely curious. I'd be surprised if none of them had holes just as bad, if not worse, in their career batting records when compared to Shakib.

 

[Burgey]

Botham was pretty ordinary vs West indies iirc.

 

[Red]

How much did the other great ARs - Hadlee, Imran, Botham, Miller, etc - average against the top bowling attacks of their era?

Genuinely curious. I'd be surprised if none of them had holes just as bad, if not worse, in their career batting records when compared to Shakib.

Kapil maintained a pretty consistent average with the bat against most opponents in what was a pretty tough era. 26 v Aust. 40 v Eng. 30 v WIs. Which is better than acceptable for a bowling AR batting mostly 7 and 8.

Imran was pretty consistent with the bat against everyone. Averaged above 30 against all comers apart from the WIs where he averaged 27, which is not shameful considering the era.

Miller played most of his tests against Eng and averaged 34, which is not much of a drop off of his career average of 37. Averaged 37 v India, 33 v SA and 53 v the WIs.

Botham was more a mixed bag against everyone. Less great against WIs and Aus, but excellent v India and v good against NZ.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I'm struggling to understand why averaging 40 with the bat isn't enough for Shakib to be recognised as a great all-rounder when it is a significantly higher batting average than almost any other great all-rounder who was also a front-line bowler. I guess Dev, Botham and Hadlee were all rock-solid batsmen who consistently delivered on their potential.

That's because it has very little to do with the actual stats. People's perception on a player's quality, greatness has in part to do with the said player's record and career but as much to do with how much the player has registered in someone's memory with great performances. This is where subjectivity comes in to play. It has to do with how much coverage and exposure a player gets which determines how much we have seen, witnessed, experienced, read about a player.

Unfortunately for Shakib, because of the team that he plays for, most people barely know he exists and plays test cricket. Most of his great performances will not get the kind of coverage or analysis or discussion that even someone like Mitch Marsh who isn't half the player as Shakib will get. This is ultimately what determines why a player gets underrated.

Case in point Younis Khan. A few years back, I used to wonder why he is so underrated, why he gets forgotten during these discussions on great modern batsmen, why I read thread after thread on CW about 'bigger' players and YK only gets a side mention? I used to think ok maybe he needs a few more runs, he did that, still unnoticed. Maybe a slightly higher average, he started averaging 54 at one point, still under the radar. Maybe a great series against Australia who he barely played against. He went on a runscoring spree like no other. Still forgotten. Then I thought maybe a few hundreds outside of Asia. He got a double in Oval and 175 in Sydney. Still not enough. That's when I realized it's not gonna happen.

Most of his important and great performances went unnoticed, unseen, barely talked about because of the team that he plays for which automatically puts him in the second tier. And this is not just about CW here. I am talking about the larger cricketing fraternity, which includes journalists, media, writers. Jarrod Kimber, a widely read and popular writer admitted he had never seen YK live until 2016 England series last year and YK made his debut in 2000 and that is at the heart of the problem.

Ultimately as fans, we are not able to watch every game live. We follow games in the news, we read about them, we hear about them and that ultimately forms our collective memory of a player and that along with the player's stats and records is what determines their category in our minds.

Sanga is the only guy who broke free from the second tier class because he just pinned everyone into submission by scoring a ridiculous amount of runs and averaging 57. That's an exceptional record and it takes an exceptionally rare record like that, to average higher than the Tendulkars and Pontings of the world for him to get the respect and attention and that only happened in the last few years of his career when people just couldn't ignore him any longer.


Shakib has the stats, without the memory. He has played 6 test matches each against England and India and none against Australia. He once scored a 144 and a 5 wicket haul in a test match. Barley anyone talked or wrote about it. Yesterday he got a hundred at a time his team was 5 wickets down and more than 100 runs behind. and 4 crucial second innings wickets. Other than a few Bangers and SL fans, it won't get noticed much and will easily get overshadowed by the bigger blockbuster test match going on at the same time.

Unless he pulls a Sanga and starts producing ridiculous numbers with the bat and ball and just shames journalists and fans to notice him, he will fall short of the great all rounder status. A batting average of 40 and bowling average of 33 is not going to do that.

 

[Red]

Shakib has the stats, without the memory. He has played 6 test matches each against England and India and none against Australia. He once scored a 144 and a 5 wicket haul in a test match. Barley anyone talked or wrote about it. Yesterday he got a hundred at a time his team was 5 wickets down and more than 100 runs behind. and 4 crucial second innings wickets. Other than a few Bangers and SL fans, it won't get noticed much and will easily get overshadowed by the bigger blockbuster test match going on at the same time.

Unless he pulls a Sanga and starts producing ridiculous numbers with the bat and ball and just shames journalists and fans to notice him, he will fall short of the great all rounder status. A batting average of 40 and bowling average of 33 is not going to do that.

The actual issue is that he needs to play against the elite teams and show that he can cut it. Then he can be considered a great player.

I like Shakib, but he has to do a lot more to be classed with the great all rounders. A hell of a lot more.

 

[OverratedSanity]

That's because it has very little to do with the actual stats. People's perception on a player's quality, greatness has in part to do with the said player's record and career but as much to do with how much the player has registered in someone's memory with great performances. This is where subjectivity comes in to play. It has to do with how much coverage and exposure a player gets which determines how much we have seen, witnessed, experienced, read about a player.

Unfortunately for Shakib, because of the team that he plays for, most people barely know he exists and plays test cricket. Most of his great performances will not get the kind of coverage or analysis or discussion that even someone like Mitch Marsh who isn't half the player as Shakib will get. This is ultimately what determines why a player gets underrated.

Case in point Younis Khan. A few years back, I used to wonder why he is so underrated, why he gets forgotten during these discussions on great modern batsmen, why I read thread after thread on CW about 'bigger' players and YK only gets a side mention? I used to think ok maybe he needs a few more runs, he did that, still unnoticed. Maybe a slightly higher average, he started averaging 54 at one point, still under the radar. Maybe a great series against Australia who he barely played against. He went on a runscoring spree like no other. Still forgotten. Then I thought maybe a few hundreds outside of Asia. He got a double in Oval and 175 in Sydney. Still not enough. That's when I realized it's not gonna happen.

Most of his important and great performances went unnoticed, unseen, barely talked about because of the team that he plays for which automatically puts him in the second tier. And this is not just about CW here. I am talking about the larger cricketing fraternity, which includes journalists, media, writers. Jarrod Kimber, a widely read and popular writer admitted he had never seen YK live until 2016 England series last year and YK made his debut in 2000 and that is at the heart of the problem.

Ultimately as fans, we are not able to watch every game live. We follow games in the news, we read about them, we hear about them and that ultimately forms our collective memory of a player and that along with the player's stats and records is what determines their category in our minds.

Sanga is the only guy who broke free from the second tier class because he just pinned everyone into submission by scoring a ridiculous amount of runs and averaging 57. That's an exceptional record and it takes an exceptionally rare record like that, to average higher than the Tendulkars and Pontings of the world for him to get the respect and attention and that only happened in the last few years of his career when people just couldn't ignore him any longer.


Shakib has the stats, without the memory. He has played 6 test matches each against England and India and none against Australia. He once scored a 144 and a 5 wicket haul in a test match. Barley anyone talked or wrote about it. Yesterday he got a hundred at a time his team was 5 wickets down and more than 100 runs behind. and 4 crucial second innings wickets. Other than a few Bangers and SL fans, it won't get noticed much and will easily get overshadowed by the bigger blockbuster test match going on at the same time.

Unless he pulls a Sanga and starts producing ridiculous numbers with the bat and ball and just shames journalists and fans to notice him, he will fall short of the great all rounder status. A batting average of 40 and bowling average of 33 is not going to do that.

40 and 33 is already an insane overall record though. It is an utterly unique resume where he's consistently delivered for the team in both disciplines.

Agree 100% on YK

 

[OverratedSanity]

I'd agree that Shakib doesn't compare to Kapil/Imran/Botham yet, but do people atleast agree that he's in the Flintoff/Cairns class in terms of what he's achieved?

 

[viriya]

Shakib is inherently at a disadvantage because the "elite" teams like to avoid touring Bangladesh. He might struggle vs them overseas but if anything this is a positive on Shakib - he gets less home games + he doesn't get to destroy his own team as well.

His stats are slightly inflated because of higher Zim play, but he also is a unique all-rounder in that he carries in both disciplines. All the other great all-rounders were either ordinary in one discipline, or not good in both at the same time for most of their careers (imran apart from a couple great series for example).

 

[honestbharani]

All I can say is he is one of the first guys I try to pick in a draft here if the other great all-rounders are taken. You can only play against who or what you are put up against and he has done a great job, even though, as others have pointed out, he has also often thrown his wicket away etc. To me, he is an elite all-rounder. Is he better than the other blokes mentioned? That is harder to state definitively and I still think the others had better careers but we have to wait for Shakib to finish his career too. But I do think he definitely belongs in that company and bracket.

 

[Red]

He might struggle vs them overseas but if anything this is a positive on Shakib -

pls

 

[Zinzan]

I'm struggling to understand why averaging 40 with the bat isn't enough for Shakib to be recognised as a great all-rounder when it is a significantly higher batting average than almost any other great all-rounder who was also a front-line bowler. I guess Dev, Botham and Hadlee were all rock-solid batsmen who consistently delivered on their potential.

Probably all a bit academic now as Shakib does seem to be transitioning into a batting all-rounder, but for most of his career his batting has been more than good enough to justify calling him an elite all-rounder, when you consider his bowling (and vice-versa.....which is exactly the point, he plays such a unique role in his side).

I'm sure others have answered that, and I haven't bothered to check his record yet, but I'm not sure he's ever toured Aust or SA, the toughest two places to travel for a SC all-rounder....

 

[OverratedSanity]

He picked up two 5fers in 2 tests the only time he toured SA.

 

[Zinzan]

I have since checked and yeah, he's never played Aust.

Also if you look at the next best teams outside of them, England, SA & India, his batting average drops down to about 23, If he had played Australia, it's hard to think it wouldn't be similar.

Shakib is basically Vettori from about 2003, when he averaged about 39-40 with the bat & 33 with the ball...

I think you have to do a decent drill down of opposition, where he's played etc, before even entertaining whether he's anywhere near the ATG Test all-rounders.

 

[Zinzan]

He picked up two 5fers in 2 tests the only time he toured SA.

Some good numbers against SA, although it should be noted SA scored >400 in both those innings, while Bangers got rolled when they batted. Still decent to get 5 SA wickets in their backyard.

 

[Athlai]

Shakib is better than Vettori, more likely to take wickets and more likely to score 50+

 

[Zinzan]

Shakib is better than Vettori, more likely to take wickets and more likely to score 50+

Better overall career yes, but don't forget Vettori was one of our best batsmen in the last 8-9 years of his career and averaged 40 with the bat IIRC, with about 6 hundreds. Also their bowling record is similar although in fairness Vettori played a much higher proportion of games against tougher opposition, even if he did get to bully Bangers & Zim a lot.

 

[vitalogy83]

Much like for BAN, the time to perform and do well is right now for Shakib because they are slowly starting to get attention with their wins and performances. In a way what he's done up to now doesn't really matter..if he can continue to be consistent and BAN pick up wins regularly in the next 10 years he will get the attention he deserves..

Given the breakdown of his stats it is a little hard to place him that elite - ATG bracket just yet I think.


His 100 v SL in the 2nd test was brilliant and he also got the crucial wickets in the 2nd innings - Karunaratne and then Lakmal when the total was getting away from this..these are great performances and deserves attention..He just needs to do more of them against better opposition for a sustained period

 

[Zinzan]

Agree and whilst it looks amazing scoring a double hundred in NZ, that was honestly one of the luckiest innings I've ever seen in any form of cricket...

Everything went for him that day.

 

[vitalogy83]

if the FTP is accurate

Home v Pak 2 tests
Away v Aus 2 tests
Away v SA 2 tests
Home v SL 2 tests
Away v WI 2 tests

This is a great opportunity for Shakib and BAN to show what they are capable of I think