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Thread: Life After Flintoff

  1. #1
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Life After Flintoff

    Cricket Web - Features: Life After Flintoff

    After the Ashes, England's Test side will enter a new era, one where Andrew Flintoff in particular will need to be replaced. How should England balance their team without Flintoff, and who are the likely contenders to join the England squad in the future?


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    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    It's an interesting one. But in the end, bowling is a lot easier when you have the runs on the board. It's a mental hurdle that gives the bowlers a bit of extra wind, and is daunting for the opposition batsmen. As well as Broad has played in the last few innings, you probably do have to go with four bowlers.

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    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Interesting article.

    One issue it didn't address tho is the fact that Fred will still be hanging around the team like Banquo's Ghost as part of the one-day set up. Nostradamus I'm not, but I prophesize now that as soon as our (presumably) 4-man attack gets carted (and at some point in the winter it will, its weaknesses are all too apparent and SA's batting line up is too good) there will be a cry for the great man to once again ride to our rescue. Witness the calls made (including one from myself) for Trescothick's return.
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    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Very good point Brumby, although I do genuinely believe that Flintoff really will play his next Test next week (as long as he plays...). But yeah, the calls will always be there until he retires from all cricket. From what I remember there were often calls for Shane Warne to return to the Aussie ODI squad, and it's not like they were even doing badly!


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    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Good article.

    Tim Bresnan is an option who you have ignored though, perhaps intentionally. He has solid First Class credentials with 2493 FC runs at 26.80 and 213 wickets at 32.90. I'd not seen him bowl until this year but was pleasently surprised that he has pace too, delivering the ball at around 87mph for his first few spells (though this often drops down to 80mph as a match wears on). At 24 years old, he has time for improvement too, especially in the batting department where the statistics may be a tad underwhelming. Flintoff has been a star bowler while batting at seven, this is an unrealistic expectation of anyone new and although you have accepted this and suggest England look for a batsman, I think a genuine all rounder who bowls to fifth bowler capabilities could be a helpful replacement. England mustn't hesitate to build plans around Broad too, who may grow into the Flintoff role, I think that him and Bresnan at 7 and 8 could combine to form the ability of the genuine number 7 that neither of them are.
    The speed at which a fielding team gets through the innings is overrated.

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    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Cook
    Strauss
    ?
    Pietersen
    Collingwood
    Prior
    Broad
    Bresnan
    Swann
    Anderson
    Onions

    Seems like a real "each way" bet though. You've basically picked three bowlers good enough to claim a spot outright, and two bowlers because they bat, and they might be good enough to bowl well.

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    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    That was the team we fielded against the West Indies, except Bopara was 3 there.

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    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero View Post
    That was the team we fielded against the West Indies, except Bopara was 3 there.
    Yeah, that's right. Seems like an eon ago now.

    Think it's got merit if you believe that Broad or Bresnan are amongst the best four bowlers in the country. Can possibly carry one for team balance, but not two.

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    International Coach Pothas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manee View Post
    Good article.

    Tim Bresnan is an option who you have ignored though, perhaps intentionally. He has solid First Class credentials with 2493 FC runs at 26.80 and 213 wickets at 32.90. I'd not seen him bowl until this year but was pleasently surprised that he has pace too, delivering the ball at around 87mph for his first few spells (though this often drops down to 80mph as a match wears on). At 24 years old, he has time for improvement too, especially in the batting department where the statistics may be a tad underwhelming. Flintoff has been a star bowler while batting at seven, this is an unrealistic expectation of anyone new and although you have accepted this and suggest England look for a batsman, I think a genuine all rounder who bowls to fifth bowler capabilities could be a helpful replacement. England mustn't hesitate to build plans around Broad too, who may grow into the Flintoff role, I think that him and Bresnan at 7 and 8 could combine to form the ability of the genuine number 7 that neither of them are.
    Do not like that thinking really, playing two mediocre all rounders in an atempt to replicate the job of one makes little sense to me. Broad may have some talent and I like his batting at number 8 but if he is to keep being picked he needs to become a proper test bowler, if he then shows himself capable of batting at 7 then that is all well and good but to appoint him Flintoff's sucesor now would only damage his and Englands long term prospects. As for Bresnan I cannot see him ever developing into a test class player. England just need to accept that Flintoff was a luxury that allowed them to play 5 bowlers. Without him they simply need to pick the 6 best batsman and 4 best bowlers availble to them, that is the most obvious and best way to win test matches.

  10. #10
    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    Cook
    Strauss
    ?
    Pietersen
    Collingwood
    Prior
    Broad
    Bresnan
    Swann
    Anderson
    Onions

    Seems like a real "each way" bet though. You've basically picked three bowlers good enough to claim a spot outright, and two bowlers because they bat, and they might be good enough to bowl well.
    Crucially, I noted that this would be doable if Broad grows into the Flintoff role. I don't mean this entirely, but if Broad becomes a more complete bowler, which is the purpose of his grooming, then it will be four bowlers and one fifth bowler who can bat. Bresnan at seven may be necessary for him not to be seen as worse than Broad at batting and bowling, even though this is the likely outcome, but I feel that side can work well.

    If Broad doesn't improve, then all current plans that England may have for the future go out of the water, so I think it is fair to assume he does improve.

  11. #11
    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    Yeah, that's right. Seems like an eon ago now.

    Think it's got merit if you believe that Broad or Bresnan are amongst the best four bowlers in the country. Can possibly carry one for team balance, but not two.
    Broad has surely been picked in the hope that one day, he will be.

  12. #12
    Cricketer Of The Year Manee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pothas View Post
    Do not like that thinking really, playing two mediocre all rounders in an atempt to replicate the job of one makes little sense to me. Broad may have some talent and I like his batting at number 8 but if he is to keep being picked he needs to become a proper test bowler, if he then shows himself capable of batting at 7 then that is all well and good but to appoint him Flintoff's sucesor now would only damage his and Englands long term prospects. As for Bresnan I cannot see him ever developing into a test class player. England just need to accept that Flintoff was a luxury that allowed them to play 5 bowlers. Without him they simply need to pick the 6 best batsman and 4 best bowlers availble to them, that is the most obvious and best way to win test matches.
    Addressed above, but I do accept your point.

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    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    I think the crux of the issue with Broad is who is he keeping out? If we had someone who bowled like Glenn McGrath and he was omitted because of his batting, then yes, it would be a disgrace and off to the Tower with Miller et al. The sad fact is tho that anyone who comes in isn't guaranteed of outperforming him with the ball, even. We saw in the winter Broad was a batter bowler than a half-fit Sidebottom or a half-interested Harmison.

  14. #14
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Yes, I couldn't agree more with you Brumby. Sidebottom is the only other seamer I would really have in there, otherwise it's a case of looking at the likes of Plunkett and Mahmood. IMO Broad is a better bowler than both, as well as a better batsman.

  15. #15
    Cricketer Of The Year four_or_six's Avatar
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    And yet... maybe Broad could do what Flintoff does. I just think he's the most likely out of all our players to actually cope with leading the attack in the future. He's got that kind of personality about him.

    Surely everyone remembers how rubbish people thought Flintoff was after 20 matches? He averaged 20 with the bat and 50 with the ball.

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