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Thread: Leading Oz coaches refuse to teach doosra

  1. #76
    Hall of Fame Member chaminda_00's Avatar
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    It is a little bit short sighted and clear lack of knowledge, which is surprising from a former spinner to group the doorsa and carron ball together. Anyone can bowl the carron ball without flexing.

    I always find it strange that when an Australian coach see a good leg spinner, the teach him the wrong on. But when an Australian coach see a off spinner they don't teach a spinner the carron ball. They invented the ball.

    If that the thought process from the top of Australian cricket, let the spin cycle continue for many more decades.
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    Carrom ball is a type of spin not a luckey packet ball and it was first used by Iversen way way back


    But this


    Percentage of legal bowlers for range of acceptable mean elbow extension angle tolerances


    Elbow extension angle shows no correlation with ball speed across the sample.

    A box and whisker plot of mean, standard error and standard deviation also shows the variability of both intra- and inter-group elbow extension angle data. For instance, the group with the lowest and most stable elbow extension angle was the medium-pace group. In contrast, the group with the most variability was the spin bowling group. It would be impractical to consider imposing different elbow extension angle limits on each bowling group.
    Last edited by Spooony; 27-10-2012 at 10:28 AM.

  3. #78
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    England Cricket News: Testing methods hold back England | ESPN Cricinfo on the topic... seems to translate along the lines of "teach kids to chuck until someone's got the balls to call them on it".

    Just a matter of time before the **** hits the fan, you'd think...

    EDIT: Spoony, please explain the graph and table!
    Last edited by Neil Pickup; 26-10-2012 at 05:31 PM.
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    Hall of Fame Member chaminda_00's Avatar
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    That slow bowling chart illustrates the short sighted and lack of creatively of non sub continent spin bowling coaches.

    Where is the tradition variations for finger spinners; arm ball and top spinners. What about left arm wrist spinners. Most can bowl more then just a leg break and wrong on. What about flipper or top spinner, just because your left handed doesn't mean you can bowl them.


  5. #80
    International Coach uvelocity's Avatar
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    teach em to chuck. may as well
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    I just love all kinds of balls.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvelocity View Post
    teach em to chuck. may as well
    Not as stupid as it sounds.

    If I was teaching a kid how to become a world class off spinner, and I had many resources available to me, I'd train his muscles to know roughly where 14 degrees is. If you don't use significant amount of straightening it's nearly impossible to be a really top class finger spinner. It's a different playing field.
    Last edited by benchmark00; 27-10-2012 at 04:22 AM.
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  7. #82
    International Coach uvelocity's Avatar
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    if theres one of us that sounds stupid, it's jono

  8. #83
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaminda_00 View Post
    It is a little bit short sighted and clear lack of knowledge, which is surprising from a former spinner to group the doorsa and carron ball together. Anyone can bowl the carron ball without flexing.

    I always find it strange that when an Australian coach see a good leg spinner, the teach him the wrong on. But when an Australian coach see a off spinner they don't teach a spinner the carron ball. They invented the ball.

    If that the thought process from the top of Australian cricket, let the spin cycle continue for many more decades.
    I just re-read the article and it doesn't seem to mention the carrom ball at all...
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Not as stupid as it sounds.

    If I was teaching a kid how to become a world class off spinner, and I had many resources available to him, I'd train his muscles to know roughly where 14 degrees is. If you don't use significant amount of straightening it's nearly impossible to be a really top class finger spinner. It's a different playing field.
    You would only need to teach him not to flex during testing, there is no need to keep under 15deg in a match.
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  10. #85
    Hall of Fame Member chaminda_00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    I just re-read the article and it doesn't seem to mention the carrom ball at all...
    I was more mentioning the fact that he labelled Narine's and Mendis' carrom ball, a doorsa. Whereas they are two completely different balls. Therefore indicating his care lack of understanding of modern spin bowling. If he thinks they are the same balls, with the same action and flexing issues.

    I don't think that any of his quotes he clears names the players in question. As he can't, but we all know he is referring to bowlers like Narine, Mendis and Ashwin who don't bowl traditional doorsa. As well as other bowlers that bowl traditional doorsa like Murali, Saqlain and Harbarjan.

    I don't personally don't agree you should be teaching spinners or fast bowlers how to throw, just based on the belief everyone else does why can't we.

    The situation is no real different then fast bowlers in the 50s and 60s who came out with dodgy actions, because some coaches felt top bowlers like Lindwall and Larwood chucked in previous eras and got away with. So they never cleaned up some dodgy actions at FC and junior levels. Then players got found out at Test level and got 'thrown' out of the game.

    But at the same time quite of few of those bowlers we have found out have similar natural straightening issues to some modern bowlers and were bowling as clean as they could.

    I don't think you can really have a hard and fast rule when it comes to chucking.

    Someone who bowls at 150km/h doesn't make them a chucker, but the same is true if someone bowls a new variation bowl with a different action.

  11. #86
    International Coach uvelocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaminda_00 View Post
    I don't personally don't agree you should be teaching spinners or fast bowlers how to throw, just based on the belief everyone else does why can't we.

    The situation is no real different then fast bowlers in the 50s and 60s who came out with dodgy actions, because some coaches felt top bowlers like Lindwall and Larwood chucked in previous eras and got away with. So they never cleaned up some dodgy actions at FC and junior levels. Then players got found out at Test level and got 'thrown' out of the game.
    you can't give other teams at this level such an advantage. Australia has had two decent spin bowlers in 30 years, both leggies. administration of the game has proven it is very difficult nowadays to be removed for chucking, so that element would be of little concern.

  12. #87
    Hall of Fame Member chaminda_00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvelocity View Post
    you can't give other teams at this level such an advantage. Australia has had two decent spin bowlers in 30 years, both leggies. administration of the game has proven it is very difficult nowadays to be removed for chucking, so that element would be of little concern.
    The thing is Jason Krejza can bowl the carrom ball with a straight action. It just he has been discouraged to bowl it by Australian officials, because of their traditional approach.

    Both he and Dan Cullen have also 'bowled' the traditional doorsa.

    Both have varying success with the variations, like most spinners. But both were discouraged to work on those balls by Australian official, even though one of them can ball it without straightening.

    I think you find that Bailey's comments during the T20 WC was a loaded statement to change the Australian officials stance on those types of balls, to increase the chance of his team mate getting back into the Australian team. As well as move the side forwards.

    I think you need to remove the chucking aspects of the discussion now their is variation that can be bowled with a normal action. Australian officials need to look beyond the chucking issues and coach fingers spinners to try and bowl with more natural variety. There is already two that have played FC cricketers that are capable of it. I'm sure there would be more if they stopped their traditional stance.
    Last edited by chaminda_00; 27-10-2012 at 06:49 AM.

  13. #88
    International Coach uvelocity's Avatar
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    you know more about their variations than I do for sure. I thought the same as bailey before he said it though, if you can't beat em join em. the fact is there are plenty of chuckers getting around lower levels of cricket, they are being stopped before getting to the top based on some idea of ethics I guess, there is no time for that anymore

  14. #89
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    If your stock ball isn't dangerous enough, you won't take wickets in Test, or One Day cricket. Alex Loudon bowled a doosra. Exactly.

    T20 is a different story, where having the batsman in some sort of doubt where the ball is going to go is quite important, otherwise they can just thrown their hands through the ball.

  15. #90
    Hall of Fame Member chaminda_00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic_orthdox View Post
    If your stock ball isn't dangerous enough, you won't take wickets in Test, or One Day cricket. Alex Loudon bowled a doosra. Exactly.

    T20 is a different story, where having the batsman in some sort of doubt where the ball is going to go is quite important, otherwise they can just thrown their hands through the ball.
    Does your stock bowl have to be an off break?

    Loudon's failure had as much to do with the fact he had a poor doorsa as a stock bowl and a generally average off break.

    You look at someone like Paul Adams who stock bowl wasn't a leg break, but a wrong un and he took plenty of Test wickets, without the so called traditional stock ball.

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