Leading Oz coaches refuse to teach doosra

[Streetwise]

Originally Posted by Richard

Debateable that Jenner has it TBH. Many people have commented that he's not really much of a coach who just happened to work well as a personal mentor to Warne.

And that is precisely what a coach is supposed to do. It not what people say its what you do that matters.

[Richard]

Just because a personal coach can be a good thing for some players doesn't mean wide-serving coaches who teach the same thing to lots of players are no use.

What I'm coming to disagree with is - at high levels at least, less so at grass-roots - coaches who supposedly excel in all areas. I much prefer specialist fielding, batting, seam-bowling and spin-bowling coaches.

[Streetwise]

Originally Posted by Richard

Just because a personal coach can be a good thing for some players doesn't mean wide-serving coaches who teach the same thing to lots of players are no use.

What I'm coming to disagree with is - at high levels at least, less so at grass-roots - coaches who supposedly excel in all areas. I much prefer specialist fielding, batting, seam-bowling and spin-bowling coaches.

Jenner and Mallett excel with spin bowlers, disagree with that all you like but the only outcome is you would be wrong.

[pup11]

Originally Posted by Streetwise

This is what I'm talking about, White does not have the talent that Warne or Mendis has and there is nothing you can do to make him a Warne or Mendis. If it was that simple every team would have a Warne and a Murali along with a McGrath and Ambrose in their team. Coaching is indentifying the talent then developing it which are skills that Jenner and Mallett both have.

Of course White would have never turned himself into the next Shane Warne, but with better guidance atleast he could have become a serviceable option with the ball, but he was always forced by Jenner to develop his leg-spinner, rather then looking to improve his basic technique and work with strengths he had.

I'm not sure a bloke like Anil Kumble would have taken 600 odd test wickets, had someone told him stop bowling his fastish top-spinners and start concentrating on developing a leggie that turns.

That's where I don't think people like Mallet or Jenner and other Aussie spin coaches and mentors have been smart enough to adapt their coaching methods keeping in mind the kind of individual they are working with.

[Streetwise]

Originally Posted by pup11

Of course White would have never turned himself into the next Shane Warne, but with better guidance atleast he could have become a serviceable option with the ball, but he was always forced by Jenner to develop his leg-spinner, rather then looking to improve his basic technique and work with strengths he had.

I'm not sure a bloke like Anil Kumble would have taken 600 odd test wickets, had someone told him stop bowling his fastish top-spinners and start concentrating on developing a leggie that turns.

That's where I don't think people like Mallet or Jenner and other Aussie spin coaches and mentors have been smart enough to adapt their coaching methods keeping in mind the kind of individual they are working with.

No I dont think you understand that if someone is not capable of something they are just not capable of doing it. White had the best guidence available but could not achieve something he was incapable of. Its the same with batsmen, for example Hick had all the coaches available but just didnt have the ability. Was it the England batting coachs poor guidence that Hick failed.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Streetwise

Jenner and Mallett excel with spin bowlers, disagree with that all you like but the only outcome is you would be wrong.

Considerable evidence that Jenner actually does nothing of the sort, and has in fact done nothing for so much as a single bowler apart from Warne.

Mallett though is certainly a quality coach.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Streetwise

No I dont think you understand that if someone is not capable of something they are just not capable of doing it. White had the best guidence available but could not achieve something he was incapable of. Its the same with batsmen, for example Hick had all the coaches available but just didnt have the ability. Was it the England batting coachs poor guidence that Hick failed.

Nothing like the same for Hick. There are examples you could use for the point you're trying to prove - Chris Adams or Darren Maddy for instance - but Hick is not one.

[Streetwise]

Originally Posted by Richard

Considerable evidence that Jenner actually does nothing of the sort, and has in fact done nothing for so much as a single bowler apart from Warne.

Mallett though is certainly a quality coach.

All the evidence I have witnessed is the opposite of what you say but I'm willing to look at this evidence you have that shows that Jenner does not.

[Richard]

Ask smack orthdox - he seemed to be saying precisely that earlier this thread.

All I've heard is hundreds of people saying the same thing - that Jenner doesn't really know tonnes about bowling wristspin, merely got lucky with Warne, and in trying to turn everyone else into Warnes has turned some bowlers who might've been good enough to play grade first team into nothing of the sort and bowlers barely able to bowl any more.

[Streetwise]

All I've heard is hundreds of people saying the same thing - that Jenner doesn't really know tonnes about bowling wristspin, merely got lucky with Warne, and in trying to turn everyone else into Warnes has turned some bowlers who might've been good enough to play grade first team into nothing of the sort and bowlers barely able to bowl any more.

Evidence would be to name some of these players that might've been good enough to play grade first team turned into nothing of the sort and bowlers barely able to bowl any more, Carrying on about White is futile because his own mentor Hookes was the first to tell White that he would only ever be a batsman who could bowl a few overs and would never be a bowler.

If you are going to provide evidence of something I would expect it to be more than you read it on some forum.

[Richard]

Far more than just reading on some forum. Have heard lots of people say\write it, and have heard lots of others talk\write about how they've heard others say\write it.

If you expect me to have recorded or bookmarked every instance I've heard and read though, I'm afraid you're asking too much.

I never mentioned White FTR so don't know why you're directing that comment at me, haven't the first clue about who's coached him all career.

[BoyBrumby]

From cricinfo.

Basically saying he thinks the delivery is a chuck. Or gets as close as the threat of litigation and politeness allows a national selector to, anyway.

Wouldn't take too much more for me to turn for him right now. Legend.

[Spooony]

Totally agree with Australia. Chuckers are chuckers and they are everywhere batting with short sleeves bowling with long sleeves. Suddenly half the sub continents turners have suddenly developed the condition Murali had which gave him a valid reason. The others are chuckers I see next one is the Sri Lankan youngster bowling with a arm more bend than a tea pot. Bring back Daryll Hair

[GotSpin]

[Top_Cat]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

From cricinfo.

Basically saying he thinks the delivery is a chuck. Or gets as close as the threat of litigation and politeness allows a national selector to, anyway.

Wouldn't take too much more for me to turn for him right now. Legend.

My previous thoughts/feelings for Invers continue to speak for me.