Leading Oz coaches refuse to teach doosra

[Jakester1288]

Originally Posted by cover drive man

Hate to sound ignorant here, but what is a doosra?

As Richard said, it is the finger-spinners delivery that turns the opposite way to the standard off break (eg, for a right arm off spin bowler, bowling to a right hand batsman, it's a ball that would turn to the off side, or from the bowlers point of view, to the left).

I've tried bowling it numerous times (I am a seam bowler, but occasionally bowl a bit of spin), and I say it is impossible to bowl legally. Whilst IMO, in time they will learn to bowl it legally, whether through actually learning how to do it more effectively, or the rules being bended again, but it will eventually happen. Thus, I think this is stupid, we should be teaching our young spin bowlers the doosra as a variation ball, after they have competently learned their stock ball and the ins and outs of bowling finger spin.

[Matt79]

Fourth pic is Chuck Fleetwood-Smith. Hogg was not hopeless. He never got much of a chance in tests, but he was a fantastic ODI bowler. Bevan, playing as an allrounder, took nearly two wickets at match at a tick under 25.

Sobers, like those I've listed above, could deliver wrist-spin out of their left hand at more than a "remotely notable standard".

[The Sean]

Originally Posted by Richard

Who's the fourth pic of?

Originally Posted by Pigeon

Looks curiously like Alan Stanford.

That would be the wonderful Leslie O'Brien Fleetwood-Smith, known to the cricketing world as Chuck.

EDIT - probably fitting that the bloke who posted it in the first place beat me to the answer.

[Matt79]

Forgot to mention the hairiest man in world cricket as well! :shame:

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Matt79

Fourth pic is Chuck Fleetwood-Smith. Hogg was not hopeless. He never got much of a chance in tests, but he was a fantastic ODI bowler. Bevan, playing as an allrounder, took nearly two wickets at match at a tick under 25.

Sobers, like those I've listed above, could deliver wrist-spin out of their left hand at more than a "remotely notable standard".

Fleetwood-Smith was pretty hopeless too - worst figures in Test history or something. Hogg was not a "fantastic" ODI bowler, he benefited from the strength of Australia's seam attack and the fact that he would regularly be coming on at ~90-4 or ~70-1 off 20 overs. He was not that much of a spinner of the ball and did not possess particularly outstanding accuracy. The main reason he struggled to get much of a chance in Tests is because he would hardly have played First-Class cricket for WA but for his batting. Bevan had no more than 3 or 4 Tests as an all-rounder, had he played more his bowling average would've ended at 60 or so - he was that bad. Sobers hardly ever bowled wristspin, he was mostly a seamer (and occasionally a fingerspinner) so how good he was at it we'll never really truly know.

[Matt79]

whatever

[Richard]

Really begs the question of what the point of posting is at all if that's going to be your final response TBH.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Matt79

Forgot to mention the hairiest man in world cricket as well! :shame:

Thought Punter bowled seam up, tbh?

[Jakester1288]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Thought Punter bowled seam up, tbh?

I know what you are getting at, but Ponting actually bowls his mediums and some off spinners as well.

I'm not sure if he is pace only, but I know he used to bowl off spinners.

[Streetwise]

Originally Posted by pup11

Exactly...

To be very honest its mindset like this that has created such a lack of good spin bowlers in Australia, people like John Davison (FFS), are teaching spin bowling to aspiring spin bowlers.

Dean Jones recently said that CA should seriously think about hiring people like Saqlain and ask him to coach young Aussie spin bowlers, and that's definitely something that should be done, a lot of spin bowlers in Australia hardly know much about their trade, because most of them aren't being coached by the right people.

I think all these "spin mentors" really need to wake up and smell the coffee, they need to realise that's its year 2009, and every finger-spinner around the world is either bowling a doosra or trying to develop one, because since the pitches are flat like ****, they know they won't last long without having any variations.

Great spinners are not taught how to bowl, Murali for instance was not the creation of coaches teaching him how to bowl and the same with Warne. These players had something that was special and the coaches job was to teach them how to play the game using their talent. Warne was mentored by Jenner who encouraged him to have the confidence to do what he does best. Jenner didnt say here this is how you bowl it was more of a talk about what he needs to do to succeed. Murali was the same it was not a coach that came along and said here Murali you should bowl like this or do it this way it is more of a mentor role to help them deal with the mental side of playing cricket.

Mendis is another, nobody taught him how to bowl he just had the talent and needed to be mentored on how best to use that talent. Bowling coaches identify talent then teach the bowler how best to use what talent they have. Most fast bowlers that adjust their action at the request of coaches end up failing miserably. Coaches dont teach players how to bowl, they may suggest some minor adjustments but very little.

This idea that a coach has to be able to bowl the doosra before they can coach a player is poppycock and shows the lack of understanding some people have of what a coaches role is.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Jakester1288

I know what you are getting at, but Ponting actually bowls his mediums and some off spinners as well.

I'm not sure if he is pace only, but I know he used to bowl off spinners.

Don't wanna derail the thread too much, but I reckon he coulda been very useful if he'd worked more on his bowling (only ever seen him seam-up myself). When he brought himself on in 2005 (picked up his opposite number if memory serves) he swung it at over 80mph. Think his back mitigated against him bowling more too, or so I read once.

[Matt79]

Early days Taylor used him a few times in the role Ponting himself has tried to use Hussey occasionally. Except being Taylor, it often seemed to result in an immediate wicket.

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by BoyBrumby

Don't wanna derail the thread too much, but I reckon he coulda been very useful if he'd worked more on his bowling (only ever seen him seam-up myself). When he brought himself on in 2005 (picked up his opposite number if memory serves) he swung it at over 80mph. Think his back mitigated against him bowling more too, or so I read once.

Flintoff said it was the most difficult bowling he faced all summer. I think it was Flintoff, anyway, someone did (not Vaughan, I don't think, who he did get out)

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Streetwise

Great spinners are not taught how to bowl, Murali for instance was not the creation of coaches teaching him how to bowl and the same with Warne. These players had something that was special and the coaches job was to teach them how to play the game using their talent. Warne was mentored by Jenner who encouraged him to have the confidence to do what he does best. Jenner didnt say here this is how you bowl it was more of a talk about what he needs to do to succeed. Murali was the same it was not a coach that came along and said here Murali you should bowl like this or do it this way it is more of a mentor role to help them deal with the mental side of playing cricket.

Mendis is another, nobody taught him how to bowl he just had the talent and needed to be mentored on how best to use that talent. Bowling coaches identify talent then teach the bowler how best to use what talent they have. Most fast bowlers that adjust their action at the request of coaches end up failing miserably. Coaches dont teach players how to bowl, they may suggest some minor adjustments but very little.

This idea that a coach has to be able to bowl the doosra before they can coach a player is poppycock and shows the lack of understanding some people have of what a coaches role is.

To teach someone who does not know how to bowl something how to bowl it requires the knowledge of how to bowl it. Simple as.

No-one taught Warne to bowl a Flipper - that is, no-one demonstrated the techniques and gave him run-throughs. He just watched other people do it and learned it.

Different players require different coaching. Some require to be shown how to bowl entire deliveries; some just need a bit of mentoring and occasional guidance about what to do under certain circumstances. There is no way a coach has one concrete role - an outstanding coach must be able to do it all, as well as recognise what they need to do with which players.

[vic_orthdox]

Streetwise brings up a lot of good points.

One of the overriding problems is that accuracy is a little too highly rated amongst the junior bowlers. You end up with a lot of players who have come through juniors getting out lots of batsmen by frustrating them out, or being more patient than the bowler. That gets you selected for representative teams.

Once you reach senior cricket, you need to start spinning the ball. I remember having a session with Jenner, and he told me how so often a young spinner tells him how their best asset is their accuracy, and how they come to him to learn how to spin the ball. Maybe pick these "accurate" kids in your representative sides if that's what they need, but they need to keep on helping these kids who can spin the ball to develop as well.