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Thread: The stats do not do him justice!

  1. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    Ok well lets pull it back then.
    Let's not. Thank God the pubs are open.

  2. #497
    SJS
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    Just out of curiosity, how do you decide who is a better keeper ?

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    Neither of the 3. The basis of my reasoning which i still stand by, why i put Stewart in my ENG ATXI over Knott. Was not because i believe Stewart was a better keeper than for two. That clearly isn't the case.

    But for the simple reasons that Stewart better batting strenght as a # 6 in a hypotetical ENG ATXI, plus his very solid keeping at his best. Is a better overall package than Knott.

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    Which is key, because Botham batting higher than #7 in a ATXI is too risky IMO. Given his fragilties vs WI at their pomp even during his peak years 77-84. The only all-rounders in the games history who should bat in the top 6 in ATXIs without question should be Miller, Sobers, Procter, Rice, Imran.
    Just out of curiosity again, why wouldn't you chose Les Ames in place of Stewart if you wanted a keeper who could bat at number six?
    Last edited by SJS; 25-07-2009 at 08:27 PM.

  4. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you decide who is a better keeper ?
    By watching them keep wicket where applicable. In the case of Les Ames there's no choice but to go by the testimony of people who did see him. I'd be amazed if he was a better keeper than Alan Knott but if a knowledgable person who saw both says he is then fair enough. Putting Alec Stewart's sub-standard keeping and moderate batting ahead of Alan Knott's supreme keeping and adequate batting makes no sense at all. If Stewart had been around in Knott's day there is not a cat in hells chance that he would have been chosen ahead of him - nor would he have been chosen ahead of Bob Taylor.


  5. #500
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    I've never seen a better keeper than Alan Knott and I don't believe that any keeper in history, Adam Gilchrist included, would have been more effective than he was batting against Lillee, Thomson, Roberts and Holding et al in the mid 70's

  6. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    It's not really his keeping that's being judged though. I hope there's no one in the entire universe who would argue that Stewart is a better keeper than Knott. The only issue is whether in the early days the uncertainity over his keeping role affected his batting to the point where all those performances should be arbitrarily removed from his batting average.
    Whatever affect it had on him is unquantifiable.
    No-one's saying anything should be arbitrarily removed from anything. The point is it makes little sense to treat a period when he was being constantly tossed from one role to another as exactly the same thing as one where he had a clearly defined role. Especially when the results were so different.
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  7. #502
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I've never seen a better keeper than Alan Knott and I don't believe that any keeper in history, Adam Gilchrist included, would have been more effective than he was batting against Lillee, Thomson, Roberts and Holding et al in the mid 70's
    Reckon Stewart would TBH. Stewart's batting had a fair bit of weakness, but he was dynamite off the back-foot to quick bowlers.

    Obviously he'd be very unlikely to keep as well to the Underwoods and Illingworths as Knott did, but that's a different matter.

    It really does surprise me that anyone would claim Knott's batting - as wicketkeeper, as specialist batsman, as anything but anything - was particularly close to being as good as Stewart's.
    Last edited by Richard; 26-07-2009 at 04:42 AM.

  8. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    If Stewart had been around in Knott's day there is not a cat in hells chance that he would have been chosen ahead of him - nor would he have been chosen ahead of Bob Taylor.
    He'd probably have been chosen for the team though, because he was quite a bit better as a batsman than the likes of Keith Fletcher and Mike Denness. And thus if England were behind in a series and Stewart could keep adequately, as he could, Taylor might well be dropped every now and then for a specialist batsman, even if that batsman was only Mike Denness.

  9. #504
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    By watching them keep wicket where applicable. In the case of Les Ames there's no choice but to go by the testimony of people who did see him. I'd be amazed if he was a better keeper than Alan Knott but if a knowledgable person who saw both says he is then fair enough. Putting Alec Stewart's sub-standard keeping and moderate batting ahead of Alan Knott's supreme keeping and adequate batting makes no sense at all. If Stewart had been around in Knott's day there is not a cat in hells chance that he would have been chosen ahead of him - nor would he have been chosen ahead of Bob Taylor.
    Fair enough.

    When I posed the query on Ames, I did not compare him to Knott although by all contemporary accounts he (Ames) was a fantastic keeper whose keeping was slightly underplayed because of his magnificent batting.

    I too would chose Knott before him as an all time England keeper (although I would give Evans a good consideration before that) but if I was ever asked to chose a batsman keeper for England (for Tests) or for a world side for that matter (its not a choice I normally make) my first choice would be Ames and Stewart wouldn't even figure in it.

  10. #505
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Yeah, to keep wicket in any England all-time team for me would be Les Ames, no questions asked. Possibly an inferior batsman to Stewart, but if so marginally, and by accounts I've only relatively recently discovered an excellent wicketkeeper.

  11. #506
    Hall of Fame Member aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    Just out of curiosity again, why wouldn't you chose Les Ames in place of Stewart if you wanted a keeper who could bat at number six?
    Because he failed againts the best team of his time with the bat.

  12. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    Because he failed againts the best team of his time with the bat.
    And Stewart didn't? IIRC he had a poor record against both WIndies and Australia.
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  13. #508
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    For a front line batsman Stewart had an appalling record against Australia and moderate against the West Indies. He wasn't a particularly good keeper either yet there he sits fulfilling both roles in an All Time England XI..........excellent.
    Last edited by Lillian Thomson; 26-07-2009 at 09:06 AM.

  14. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I've never seen a better keeper than Alan Knott and I don't believe that any keeper in history, Adam Gilchrist included, would have been more effective than he was batting against Lillee, Thomson, Roberts and Holding et al in the mid 70's
    Thats a VERY big call about Knott's batting, although he did bat very well againts those great bowlers in his day. No doubt in Ashes 05, some technical issues that if he played againts those bowlers he may not have been so dominant.

    But i reckon the likes of Gilchrist, Stewart, Sangakkara, Lindsay, Healy, Flower at their respective batting peaks, could have batted just as effectively as Knott againts those bowlers if they played in the mid 70s.
    Last edited by aussie; 26-07-2009 at 09:22 AM.

  15. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    Thats a VERY big call abot Knott's batting, although he did bat very well againts those great bowlers in his car.
    No, he always parked his car at least 2 miles from the ground out of superstition.

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