• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

The Independent's Dream Australian XI

Smith

Banned
hmmm, hard to justify his selection over the two that are in, unless the match is being played in Australia on flatter decks, or in India.
Pray, did Trumper, the great that he is, make runs all over the world?

Different yardsticks. I am not at all against selection of Trumper. But a note for Hayden's omission, considering he is easily the most successful opener for Australia ever, would have made it more palatable.
 

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
Yeah, have cited that innings more than a few times to his knockers here. But Trumper would have been better on wet wickets or in extremely bowler friendly conditions. It's like saying that a Ferrari is a faster car to have than a Humvee. It's true, so long as you don't have to go off-road. But if you don't know what you're going to have to try and drive across, I'd rather than Humvee.
If an alltime XI game was played then it wouldn't be on a wet pitch though, lol. It would most likely be on a deck that offers a fair contest between bat and bowl. Alltime XI's are selected to pick the best players and in over 100 years of International cricket, Hayden is the only Australian opener to have finished with a career average over 50.

It wasn't as if he was a cheap batsman either. There was a level of quality in his batting that whenever he was inform, he can do whatever he wants to do to any bowler. He is demolarising to the opposition. I can only imagine what must transpire through the bowlers mind as his massive stature walks at you just as you are about to release the ball and how frightened they must get when they realise that the ball is coming back at them twice as fast. It's one thing to do it like Tendulkar does it, with class in a Test Matches, but with Hayden's batting in any form of the game, it's a totally different level of awesomeness. When watching Hayden bat, it makes me realise how great Sir Viv must of been, because Hayden doesn't get anywhere near as much credit as what Viv does.

Even if you combined Hayden's stats from all forms of the games (shorter forms, batsman have lower averages) then Hayden averages 47 which is higher then both Morris and Trumper's averages. Hayden also has the highest average of any Australian batsman that has scored over 10,000 International runs and the 2nd most International 100's aswell.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
First and second XI:

Trumper
Ponsford
Bradman
Chappell
Ponting
Miller
Gilchrist
Warne
Lindwall
Lillee
McGrath

vs

Hayden
Lawry
McCabe
Harvey
Waugh
Border
Healy
Davidson
O'Reilly
Grimmett
Spofforth

Ponting overtakes Harvey for the first time for me and I was pretty close to putting Hayden in the first XI.
No Morris? Controversial stuff.

Nit picking, but reckon you're a seamer light in your second XI too. Waugh or Tiger as first change currently.
 

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
He faced a more poor attacks compared to some others.
Bowling attacks nowadays are now better then any other era. Admittably, the bowlers in general from other eras are better but they were surrounded by rubbish.

Since 2000, the three most difficult conditions for a touring batsman have been Australia, South Africa (average 26 per wicket) & Sri Lanka (average 26 per wicket). Since Hayden is Australian and since 2000, he has averaged 49 in South Africa in South Africa & 47 against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka. I'd say that Hayden has tackled the difficult conditions fairly well.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
England 05?

(this is weird, I'm normally arguing the pro Hayden line - can I tag in Dicko or someone?)
 

archie mac

International Coach

Matt79

Global Moderator
Pray, did Trumper, the great that he is, make runs all over the world?

Different yardsticks. I am not at all against selection of Trumper. But a note for Hayden's omission, considering he is easily the most successful opener for Australia ever, would have made it more palatable.
Yeah, given they only played tests against a couple of countries back then, kinda hard for him to score big around the world. No reason to think he would not have though.

Itbt, Morrisos more vulnerable to losing his spot to a Ponsford, Simpson or Hayden than Trumper.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
If an alltime XI game was played then it wouldn't be on a wet pitch though, lol. It would most likely be on a deck that offers a fair contest between bat and bowl. Alltime XI's are selected to pick the best players and in over 100 years of International cricket, Hayden is the only Australian opener to have finished with a career average over 50.

It wasn't as if he was a cheap batsman either. There was a level of quality in his batting that whenever he was inform, he can do whatever he wants to do to any bowler. He is demolarising to the opposition. I can only imagine what must transpire through the bowlers mind as his massive stature walks at you just as you are about to release the ball and how frightened they must get when they realise that the ball is coming back at them twice as fast. It's one thing to do it like Tendulkar does it, with class in a Test Matches, but with Hayden's batting in any form of the game, it's a totally different level of awesomeness. When watching Hayden bat, it makes me realise how great Sir Viv must of been, because Hayden doesn't get anywhere near as much credit as what Viv does.

Even if you combined Hayden's stats from all forms of the games (shorter forms, batsman have lower averages) then Hayden averages 47 which is higher then both Morris and Trumper's averages. Hayden also has the highest average of any Australian batsman that has scored over 10,000 International runs and the 2nd most International 100's aswell.
If want to just simplistically use averages, then Simpson averaged something like 56 as an opener. You certainly can't combine a guy's test and ODI records though. And given the conditions Trumper played in you need to adjust his stats up. Similarly Hayden averaging 50+ simply isn't as impressive as it would have been in another era, given how many current or recent players average 50+ compared to other periods.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Should say that I'd have no problem if they put Hayden in given how close it all is, but just think it's wrong to say Hayden was clearly better than the other options because he simply wasn't. and people writing off Trumper because he has an average that starts with 3 rather 5 is a pet hate.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Good to see some Lawry-love from Pasag here. Criminally under-rated as a test opener, IMO. And has the best record as an ODI captain in history :ph34r:
 

DingDong

State Captain
ultimate XI

1.Bill Lawry
2.Hayden
3.Bradman
4.Ponting
5.Martyn
6.Border
7.Gilly
8.Warney
9.Lillee
10.McGrath
11.Johnson
 

bagapath

International Captain
Should say that I'd have no problem if they put Hayden in given how close it all is, but just think it's wrong to say Hayden was clearly better than the other options because he simply wasn't. and people writing off Trumper because he has an average that starts with 3 rather 5 is a pet hate.
betweeen 1899 and 1912, the span of trumper's career, the overall batting average stood at 24.75. and victor scored at 39.04 per innings.

between 1994 and 2009, the span of hayden's career, the overall batting average, minus minnows, stands at 29.69. victor's normlized average for this era is 46.89. hayden averages 48.24. if you want to include minnows to maintain hayden's 50+ average, then trumper's corresponding figure reaches 48+. i am very happy to take trumper over hayden for this all-time XI either way.
 

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
If want to just simplistically use averages, then Simpson averaged something like 56 as an opener. You certainly can't combine a guy's test and ODI records though. And given the conditions Trumper played in you need to adjust his stats up. Similarly Hayden averaging 50+ simply isn't as impressive as it would have been in another era, given how many current or recent players average 50+ compared to other periods.
It's not Hayden's average that is overally impressive though. It's his match/hundred converison rate, and the fact that he did it over such a long period of time. He was the 2nd fastest to reach 20 Test hundreds (only after Sir Don) and the quickest to reach 30 Test hundreds in the history of the game. You'll find the difference between Hayden and other batsman of his era that average over 50 is that Hayden scored allot more 100's or scored 100's in a shorter space of time.

Much like all of the other classy batsman of the modern era (Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Dravid & Kallis), Hayden got his overall Test average to touch 58 after allot of Tests played.
 

Oasisbob

Cricket Spectator
It's not Hayden's average that is overally impressive though. It's his match/hundred converison rate, and the fact that he did it over such a long period of time. He was the 2nd fastest to reach 20 Test hundreds (only after Sir Don) and the quickest to reach 30 Test hundreds in the history of the game. You'll find the difference between Hayden and other batsman of his era that average over 50 is that Hayden scored allot more 100's or scored 100's in a shorter space of time.

Much like all of the other classy batsman of the modern era (Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Dravid & Kallis), Hayden got his overall Test average to touch 58 after allot of Tests played.
Without intruding upon your debate with Bagapath, I think it irrefutable Hayden's calibre as a player. He is one of the all time great openers and his statistics back this up. However, the team The Independent chose was a dream XI and I don't think any dream XI is complete without Victor Trumper. Anybody who has read any contemporary account of his batting would surely want to include him in their dream XI.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well my dream Aus XI has both Trumper and Hayden opening. Morris the unlucky one (really Aus has 6 openers who were all top quality - Hayden, Trumper, Morris, Ponsford, Lawry and Simpson). An advantage of both is that you get the bully for the flat tracks and the craftsman for the wet tracks. Any track in between would be handled well by both I would imagine.

Trumper
Hayden
Bradman (c)
Chappell G
Ponting
Miller
Gilchrist (wk)
Warne
O'Reilly
Lillee
McGrath
 

Oasisbob

Cricket Spectator
Well my dream Aus XI has both Trumper and Hayden opening. Morris the unlucky one (really Aus has 6 openers who were all top quality - Hayden, Trumper, Morris, Ponsford, Lawry and Simpson). An advantage of both is that you get the bully for the flat tracks and the craftsman for the wet tracks. Any track in between would be handled well by both I would imagine.

Trumper
Hayden
Bradman (c)
Chappell G
Ponting
Miller
Gilchrist (wk)
Warne
O'Reilly
Lillee
McGrath
It makes you realise just how good that Australia team that England beat in 2005 was. 5 players from it make your dream XI. Lucky if one player from that England team would get close to a dream England XI. Just goes to show how much of a team game it really is.
 
Last edited:

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
It makes you realise just how good that Australia team that England beat in 2005 was. 5 players from it make your dream XI. Lucky if one player from that England team would get close to a dream England XI. Just goes to show how much of a team game it really is.
They were also apart of 10 years of dominance in International cricket, which only few can hold credit to. Hayden went into the series in horrid form, Gilly was past it by then, Warne was magnificent and McGrath destroyed England before he got injured.
 

Oasisbob

Cricket Spectator
They were also apart of 10 years of dominance in International cricket, which only few can hold credit to. Hayden went into the series in horrid form, Gilly was past it by then, Warne was magnificent and McGrath destroyed England before he got injured.
I'm not knocking them as a team. They are without doubt one of the greatest teams of all time and the individuals you picked are surely worth their spots. What I was trying to say is that none of the English players would get anywhere near a dream XI but still managed to compete against a team containing 5 all time greats. That to me is the beauty of cricket.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Well my dream Aus XI has both Trumper and Hayden opening. Morris the unlucky one (really Aus has 6 openers who were all top quality - Hayden, Trumper, Morris, Ponsford, Lawry and Simpson). An advantage of both is that you get the bully for the flat tracks and the craftsman for the wet tracks. Any track in between would be handled well by both I would imagine.

Trumper
Hayden
Bradman (c)
Chappell G
Ponting
Miller
Gilchrist (wk)
Warne
O'Reilly
Lillee
McGrath
great team stephen.

to ben, i agree hayden is an all-time great. no arguments there. but having seen his batting technique - i dont think his back foot play, so crucial to counter pace bowling of the highest caliber, is as good as his front foot - and having read about morris, i decided to keep arthur as victor's partner. trumper, of course, is my first choice and i was looking at a left hander to partner him for balance.

the call between trumper, morris, ponsford and hayden is very very subjective as any two out of the four will be enough to handle the best opening bowlers an opposition can throw at them.
 

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
great team stephen.

to ben, i agree hayden is an all-time great. no arguments there. but having seen his batting technique - i dont think his back foot play, so crucial to counter pace bowling of the highest caliber, is as good as his front foot - and having read about morris, i decided to keep arthur as victor's partner. trumper, of course, is my first choice and i was looking at a left hander to partner him for balance.

the call between trumper, morris, ponsford and hayden is very very subjective as any two out of the four will be enough to handle the best opening bowlers an opposition can throw at them.
Who needs the backfoot when you can pull off the front foot and on the walk down the pitch?
 

Top