The Era Chain

[Oasisbob]

It is often said that direct comparison across the different eras of cricket is almost impossible. It seems daft to compare Sachin Tendulkar and WG Grace for instance, because they played in such completely different eras - some might even say almost completely different games!

However, whilst scowling Cricinfo, I quickly come up with the following list of players that played in at least one test with each other.

Grace 1880-1899
Rhodes 1899-1930
Headley 1930-1954
Graveney 1951-1969
Boycott 1964-1982
Gooch 1975-1995
Tendulkar 1989-2009

It seems that the days of Grace are only a mere 6 matches (or maybe less?) away from the game today!

Can anybody come up with a shorter link between players of the early tests and the modern game?

Comparing each player with the player above in the chain is not unreasonable as their respective eras coincided. Maybe this is a way of comparing players across eras?

 

[NUFAN]

Recall a similar thread about this a while back.

John Traicos is always a good player in these sort of things..

For more information on John Traicos check out a 'sheep thread' near you

 

[pskov]

Hmm, trying to see how quickly I can link a modern player to the first test using first-class games as the link. Anyone beat six steps?

George Ulyett 1873-1893 (played in first ever test)
George Hirst 1891-1929
Maurice Tate 1912-1937
Denis Compton 1936-1958
Fred Titmus 1949-1982
John Emburey 1973-1997
Usman Afzaal 1995-2009

I started at Fred Titmus and worked in both directions from him. He played with a lot of players!

 

[Trumpers_Ghost]

quickly did one for Aust test players and couldn't go less than ten (but someone else probably could)

Blackham
ES Gregory
Macartney (Mailey or Armstrong)
Ponsford (could be nearly anyone, the gap from the above to Bradman was only 2years)
Bradman
Harvey
Simpson
Border
Warne (Taylor, Waughs, Hayden, Martyn, Healy, etc)
Ponting

 

[bagapath]

brian close whose test career spanned from 49 to 75 used to be pretty helpful in these chains

 

[SJS]

Hmm, trying to see how quickly I can link a modern player to the first test using first-class games as the link. Anyone beat six steps?

George Ulyett 1873-1893 (played in first ever test)
George Hirst 1891-1929
Maurice Tate 1912-1937
Denis Compton 1936-1958
Fred Titmus 1949-1982
John Emburey 1973-1997
Usman Afzaal 1995-2009

I started at Fred Titmus and worked in both directions from him. He played with a lot of players!

The oldest first class match on record (even using cricket archives dot com is this one played in June 1801
. You need to go back to George Ulyett's grandfather's time if not to his great grand father's

 

[Richard]

Did this with some chap from my club a while back, last season. It's always interesting, but six is most certainly the best possible.

 

[Oasisbob]

Did this with some chap from my club a while back, last season. It's always interesting, but six is most certainly the best possible.

Any chance you could post up a test match link with 6 players if you can still remember it. I'd be interested in seeing it.

The difficult area when I was trying this was the 2nd World War. When using Headley as a link it's difficult to find anyone who played in his last test match in 1954 who played on long into the 60's. Only Graveney did so I think and I struggled to find someone who played against Graveney and into the late 80's.

Maybe using Bill Voce (played in Rhodes last match and after the war) is the key?

 

[zaremba]

1. Grace 1880-1899
2. Rhodes 1899-1930
3. Headley 1930-1954
4. Close 1949-1976
5. Gooch 1975-1995
6. Tendulkar 1989-2009

 

[Oasisbob]

1. Grace 1880-1899
2. Rhodes 1899-1930
3. Headley 1930-1954
4. Close 1949-1976
5. Gooch 1975-1995
6. Tendulkar 1989-2009

Headley never played with Close in a test match. Close first played the West Indies in 1957. Headley retired in 1954. Nor did Close ever play with Gooch. In that series against the West Indies in 1976 where Close returned, Gooch did not play.

 

[SJS]

1. Grace 1880-1899
2. Rhodes 1899-1930
3. Headley 1930-1954
4. Close 1949-1976
5. Gooch 1975-1995
6. Tendulkar 1989-2009

The only problem with that is you do not start with the very first test ever played.

 

[Oasisbob]

The only problem with that is you do not start with the very first test ever played.

To be fair I did say in my first post "Can anybody come up with a shorter link between players of the early tests and the modern game?". I didn't specify it had to be the first test

Although a very good point!

 

[zaremba]

Headley never played with Close in a test match. Close first played the West Indies in 1957. Headley retired in 1954. Nor did Close ever play with Gooch. In that series against the West Indies in 1976 where Close returned, Gooch did not play.

You're quite right - apologies for not having read the opening post correctly

(shambles off in disgrace)

 

[pskov]

Using test matches only to get back to the first ever test, I can't beat 8 players linked by 7 matches. Compton's debut and Woolley's final test were only three years apart and are linked by a lot of players, so just stuck Hammond in there to add the quality.

Sachin Tendulkar
John Traicos
Tom Goddard
Denis Compton
Wally Hammond
Frank Wooley
Archie MacLaren
Jack Blackham

This list would be the genesis of a terrific team, just need to add a couple of bowlers (and hide Traicos somewhere).

 

[Goughy]

Any chance you could post up a test match link with 6 players if you can still remember it. I'd be interested in seeing it.

It is not possible to go from first Test to now in 6. It would be interesting as it is impossible.

Look here for our best efforts previously.

 

[SJS]

Over two centuries in 8 generations
Here is another interesting list. It covers the entire First class period of 208 years (till the English season of 2008). Lord Beauclerk played in the very first match in June 1801.

[B]Player        	FC Career[/B]

Beauclerk	1801-1825
Fuler Pilch	1820-1854
Willsher	1850-1875
WG Grace	1865-1909
FE Woolley	1906-1938
DCS Compton	1936-1964
RG Pollock	1960-1987
GA Hick    	1985-2008

Actually His Lordship played in Fuller Pilch's debut match, Willsher played in Pilch's last game and Grace played in Willsher's last. So there is a very interesting link between the first four than merely having played at the same time. I could have made the entire chain like that but it would have stretched to another couple of players

By the way, the last five in that list are just 8 short of 600 FC centuries between them

 

[SJS]

Headley never played with Close in a test match. Close first played the West Indies in 1957. Headley retired in 1954. Nor did Close ever play with Gooch. In that series against the West Indies in 1976 where Close returned, Gooch did not play.

The problem is that really long Test careers started only from the turn of the last century, Rhodes, Hobbs, Woolley onwards. Before that Before it was very rare. The 20-23 years from 1877 till you come to the first long-career player needs minimum two players to cover since WG (damn damn damn) did not tour Australia with Lillywhite's team.

That makes him near impossible to cover the rest of 110 years with just four players.

 

[Oasisbob]

The problem is that really long Test careers started only from the turn of the last century, Rhodes, Hobbs, Woolley onwards. Before that Before it was very rare. The 20-23 years from 1877 till you come to the first long-career player needs minimum two players to cover since WG (damn damn damn) did not tour Australia with Lillywhite's team.

That makes him near impossible to cover the rest of 110 years with just four players.

It must be impossible for any less than eight players from the very first test onwards.

That first class chain that you posted above is remarkable though. 208 years in only 7 matches. Astounding. I've only read very briefly about the origins of first class game (mainly in John Major's book) but I would've been certain that it would take at least 10 generations of player to get back that far.

 

[SJS]

quickly did one for Aust test players and couldn't go less than ten (but someone else probably could)

Blackham
ES Gregory
Macartney (Mailey or Armstrong)
Ponsford (could be nearly anyone, the gap from the above to Bradman was only 2years)
Bradman
Harvey
Simpson
Border
Warne (Taylor, Waughs, Hayden, Martyn, Healy, etc)
Ponting

I think you might reach Bradman in four (not five)

1. Blackham (1877-1894)
2. Gregory (1890-1912)
3. Kelleway (1910-1928)
4. Bradman (1928-1948)

I suppose you could put Hayden in Warne's place and end with that since, to stretch a point, Hayden did play his last Test in this calender year - 2009 That should give you eight otherwise nine.

 

[SJS]

It must be impossible for any less than eight players from the very first test onwards.

That first class chain that you posted above is remarkable though. 208 years in only 7 matches. Astounding. I've only read very briefly about the origins of first class game (mainly in John Major's book) but I would've been certain that it would take at least 10 generations of player to get back that far.

There is 'sneaky' problem with that list of mine. Although there were four first class over-lapping seasons - 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 - Woolley never got to play WG in a FC game. Thats because WG had stopped playing in the County Championship and was playing in specially organised games for W G Grace XI's. Since WG was then settled in London most of these games were against Surrey. WG played in the Gentlemen vs Players game in 1906 bu Woolley was not playing there.