CMJ's top 100

[Migara]

I don't want to get sucked into a slightly bizarre "is KP better than Steve Waugh" argument, but I don't think that you can be sure that KP wouldn't have shone against those great bowlers. He tends to up his game when the spotlight is on him, and he's had notable success against Murali, Warne and McGrath, who are all all-time greats of the game.

But I always liked to believe that Waugh was tough with his material than KP, hence can withstand that odd hurricane better than KP

 

[bagapath]

Yes - and that's why they have a chance of getting into my top 100 cricketers of all time.

My favourite comment in the thread - I think a lot of people are underestimating just how mind-disintegratingly good a cricketer has to be to even warrant consideration for a shortlist for the all time top 100, let alone actually be included in the final selection.

good one from zaremba and deservingly pointed out by the sean.

as for removing some players to include those big names missing from the list at the moment i would remove martin donnelly, zaheer abbas and abdul qadir for sure and may be barry richards, learie constantine and vijay merchant too.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

One good shot never makes a player special. Considering KP, he later became bitch of the very bowler he reverse swept for six. Steve Waugh is miles ahead of KP as even a batsman, because KP never faced wrath of Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Waqar or Wasim in full flight. Waugh, took them head on, and came good. Kp would have been less successful if he had to play such bowling, considering that KP is an egoistic character, and these were bowlers who step up their speed 10k when some body decids to talk to them

Ha, how about KP's first ever Test innings when he came in at 5/21 during one of Glenn McGrath's best ever spells and went onto fend off McGrath, making a half century and ended up hitting McGrath in the 2nd tier of the Lords pavillion? Not only that but Pietersen also played Warne beautifully and Warne was at his very best during the 2005 Ashes. Considering KP averaged 48 against Murali, I'd say that KP well and truly got the better of Murali. I watched Murali bowl to Pietersen and he looked all at sea against KP.

 

[weldone]

The new KaZoH0lic more like.

No, a much much much worse version of Kazo...Kazo too loves Aussies, but he's much much much less illogical than this guy...

 

[wfdu_ben91]

No, a much much much worse version of Kazo...Kazo too loves Aussies, but he's much much much less illogical than this guy...

I thought I made a mockery out of myself with the finger spin comment until I came across your username and discovered that you couldn't even welldone properly.

 

[Redbacks]

No, a much much much worse version of Kazo...Kazo too loves Aussies, but he's much much much less illogical than this guy...

He made a valid point with respect to Warne being good on similar style to Australian decks but with a poor record in India, whilst you could view this as an advantage for Murali when playing India as he learnt his tricks under these sub continent conditions. Therefore Murali deserves similar leeway when looking at his average in Australia.

 

[weldone]

I thought I made a mockery out of myself with the finger spin comment until I came across your username and discovered that you couldn't even welldone properly.

Have you heard of something called 'proper nouns'? No, Warne's finger spin is not one ( ), but my username is... Anyways, leave it at that...

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Have you heard of something called 'proper nouns'? No, Warne's finger spin is not one ( ), but my username is... Anyways, leave it at that...

Eh, poor excuse. Atleast I can admit I did something foolish whilst all your presence does is look foolish. Even if you don't wanna admit it - weldone.

 

[Redbacks]

I like the fact that Barry Richards is in the Top 30. I knew CMJ rated him incredibly highly, after watching the ESPN Legends of Cricket series, so it was good to see him getting a decently high rank in this.

My dad was fortunate to be working at Adelaide Oval when Richards played his season for SA and beleives he was the best batsman he watched live until Tendulkar came to town so always felt he must have been pretty good (whether rating by live innings is good enough?)

His theory is that the you get a sense of Tendulkar's brilliance from how little noise is made from the ball hitting the bat compared with nearly all other batsmen. Such a large majority of his shots are well timed and middled giving that essence of grace and effortlessness about his batting. His ability to play that block shot that goes for 4 is ridiculous.

 

[Migara]

Ha, how about KP's first ever Test innings when he came in at 5/21 during one of Glenn McGrath's best ever spells and went onto fend off McGrath, making a half century and ended up hitting McGrath in the 2nd tier of the Lords pavillion? Not only that but Pietersen also played Warne beautifully and Warne was at his very best during the 2005 Ashes. Considering KP averaged 48 against Murali, I'd say that KP well and truly got the better of Murali. I watched Murali bowl to Pietersen and he looked all at sea against KP.

Pity that you have not seen the exchange when he came to SL. KP was simply cooked for dinner by Murali. He was groping, missing the flight, and averaged 25 in the series, IIRC. And for your information, Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose and Walsh at their peak is easily more destructive than McGrath in his peak. Their troughs were much deeper than McGraths, and that is the reson McGrath is considered one of the greatest. Put it another way, charged up Donald >> Charged up McGrath.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Pity that you have not seen the exchange when he came to SL. KP was simply cooked for dinner by Murali. He was groping, missing the flight, and averaged less than 20 in the series, IIRC. And for your information, Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose and Walsh at their peak is easily more destructive than McGrath in his peak. Their troughs were much deeper than McGraths, and that is the reson McGrath is considered one of the greatest. Put it another way, charged up Donald >> Charged up McGrath.

Charged up - That's like saying that bowling to Gilchrist, Gayle, Sehwag, etc are harder to bowl then Tendulkar, Lara & Ponting, because they are all more destructive then the latter when onform. Then again, facing Shoaib Akhtar and Brett Lee is equally as tough as facing Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose and Walsh because they were faster. Hell, Akhtar on form was as good as any bowler that has ever played the game because he could bowl inswinging yorkers at 155kph.

*Awaits someone to make out that I said Lee & Akhtar are better overall bowlers, when I clearly wasn't insinuating that.*

BTW, your claim for Pietersen being 'cooked for dinner' by Murali in Sri Lanka is a load of rubbish. Murali dismissed Pietersen twice in 6 innings and his 3 other dismissals were all from pace bowlers. He also averaged 25 not under 20.

 

[Richard]

Eh, poor excuse. Atleast I can admit I did something foolish whilst all your presence does is look foolish. Even if you don't wanna admit it - weldone.

A post worthy of another of the worst posters in CW history. Won't mention which, for obvious reasons.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

A post worthy of another of the worst posters in CW history. Won't mention which, for obvious reasons.

Nah, don't worry, I won't be replacing you as the worst poster in the history of Cricketweb. I wouldn't want to deprieve you of the honour that makes you sleep at night.

 

[zaremba]

Pity that you have not seen the exchange when he came to SL. KP was simply cooked for dinner by Murali. He was groping, missing the flight, and averaged 25 in the series, IIRC. And for your information, Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose and Walsh at their peak is easily more destructive than McGrath in his peak. Their troughs were much deeper than McGraths, and that is the reson McGrath is considered one of the greatest. Put it another way, charged up Donald >> Charged up McGrath.

Ah, a single 3 match series, big deal. In which, as has been pointed out, Murali dismissed him only twice.

Over his 6 matches v Sri Lanka he averages nearly 49.

And in all Tests v Murali, Warne and McGrath, three of the very greatest of all bowlers, he averages 51.

Not sure that I agree with your point about McGrath at his best being less good than those others at their respective peaks. But don't forget that this is about comparing KP with Waugh - and are you trying to persuade us that those other bowlers were always at their best when Waugh faced them? (Waqar Younis' bowling average when Steve Waugh was playing was over 33, Walsh nearly 28).

 

[oitoitoi]

BTW, your claim for Pietersen being 'cooked for dinner' by Murali in Sri Lanka is a load of rubbish. Murali dismissed Pietersen twice in 6 innings and his 3 other dismissals were all from pace bowlers. He also averaged 25 not under 20.

KP's record against spinners when the ball actually turns is pretty ordinary to say the least, he's been poor so far in the subcontinent. However when the ball doesn't turn he can murder em. Comparing KP with waugh is a stupid exercise, totally different types of players, in fact pretty much as different as you can get. Zaremba surely you're not arguing that KP's faced a better quality of bowling or even equal quality as Waugh did? KP never had to face at their peaks Donald, Pollock, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Wasim, Waqar, even the so called second class back in the 90's and early part of this decade was a lot stronger e.g. Fanie De Villiers, Srinath (feel free to add more). I'd argue more quality spinners too, Saqlain Mushtaq, Kumble at his peak, Murali was still pretty mint back then. Notice I've left out any english or australian players and that's still a pretty impressive list, KP hasn't had to face too many top attacks in his career so far, Australia in 05 were very good, but Mcgrath was part absent, gillespie was all over the place and lee aint that good. In 06/07 Mcgrath and Warne were well past there best, by some distance in fact, so claiming that is a bit dodgy IMO. SA last year were ok, but Steyn was below his best after injury and Morkel still hasn't lived upto potential. Steyn and co in SA this winter and Johnson this summer will be big challenges and it will be very interesting to see how he fares. Regarding Murali, he scored off him in England in May on a flattie, when he faced Murali on a turning surface that series he failed. He was poor in Sri Lanka and didn't look like he had a clue against Murali, pretending otherwise is just plain denial.

 

[zaremba]

KP's record against spinners when the ball actually turns is pretty ordinary to say the least, he's been poor so far in the subcontinent. However when the ball doesn't turn he can murder em. Comparing KP with waugh is a stupid exercise, totally different types of players, in fact pretty much as different as you can get. Zaremba surely you're not arguing that KP's faced a better quality of bowling or even equal quality as Waugh did? KP never had to face at their peaks Donald, Pollock, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Wasim, Waqar, even the so called second class back in the 90's and early part of this decade was a lot stronger e.g. Fanie De Villiers, Srinath (feel free to add more). I'd argue more quality spinners too, Saqlain Mushtaq, Kumble at his peak, Murali was still pretty mint back then. Notice I've left out any english or australian players and that's still a pretty impressive list, KP hasn't had to face too many top attacks in his career so far, Australia in 05 were very good, but Mcgrath was part absent, gillespie was all over the place and lee aint that good. In 06/07 Mcgrath and Warne were well past there best, by some distance in fact, so claiming that is a bit dodgy IMO. SA last year were ok, but Steyn was below his best after injury and Morkel still hasn't lived upto potential. Steyn and co in SA this winter and Johnson this summer will be big challenges and it will be very interesting to see how he fares. Regarding Murali, he scored off him in England in May on a flattie, when he faced Murali on a turning surface that series he failed. He was poor in Sri Lanka and didn't look like he had a clue against Murali, pretending otherwise is just plain denial.

No, I'm not trying to get involved in any such debate. I just disagreed with the point that Migara was making. And as I put it before,

I don't want to get sucked into a slightly bizarre "is KP better than Steve Waugh" argument, but I don't think that you can be sure that KP wouldn't have shone against those great bowlers. He tends to up his game when the spotlight is on him, and he's had notable success against Murali, Warne and McGrath, who are all all-time greats of the game.

 

[Richard]

Nah, don't worry, I won't be replacing you as the worst poster in the history of Cricketweb. I wouldn't want to deprieve you of the honour that makes you sleep at night.

Nice try. You'll not be lasting long around here if you keep posting idiotic attacks on some of the most respected posters on the forum, so here's a bit of advice: cut it out, or just disappear now and save everyone in Mod positions the trouble.

 

[Richard]

Ah, a single 3 match series, big deal. In which, as has been pointed out, Murali dismissed him only twice.

Over his 6 matches v Sri Lanka he averages nearly 49.

Again while trying to stay clear of the KP-vs-Waugh debate... I don't think there can be any real doubt that Murali has, certainly not worked KP out, but worked-out a much better means of bowling to him than he possessed when KP played that sensational knock at Edgbaston (the 142 when only 1 other batsman in the match made more than 52, or something along those lines).

In his most recent 4 Tests against SL, Pietersen has clearly struggled. Not just with Murali, no, but certainly you get the impression that Murali had got over the initial shellshock of someone playing him in the manner Pietersen did and succeeding (almost everyone who's tried to play as he has against Murali over Murali's career has fallen flat on their face, because you just can't do it without being stupendously good) and worked-out something of a plan.

And as I've said before - Murali since 2006/07 has been, for mine, a considerably reduced force to the Murali we knew of the previous 10 years or more.

 

[GIMH]

One good shot never makes a player special. Considering KP, he later became bitch of the very bowler he reverse swept for six. Steve Waugh is miles ahead of KP as even a batsman, because KP never faced wrath of Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Waqar or Wasim in full flight. Waugh, took them head on, and came good. Kp would have been less successful if he had to play such bowling, considering that KP is an egoistic character, and these were bowlers who step up their speed 10k when some body decids to talk to them

You can't rank Waugh ahead of Pietersen just because Pietersen never got the chance to play against those bowlers. It's hardly his fault. We're talking about a guy who averages about 54 against Australia, and something like 58 in Australia if I recall correctly. It's not like he's a flat track bully.

I think there are plenty of reasons to rate Waugh higher (currently - still think there might be better to come from Pietersen, not at his peak yet etc) but the fact that isn't one of them, in my opinion.

 

[Smudge]

Martin Donnelly was a key figure in NZ cricket history - his wisden obituary records CB Fry's assessment that "Donnelly was as good a left-hander as any he had seen, including Clem Hill and Frank Woolley." Check out his cricinfo pen portrait which gives the full obituary. However whether he's a Top 100 cricketer of all time is, of course, debateable. I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of the Kiwi CWers about him, and about whether he stands higher in NZ cricket history than Martin Crowe.

He'll never be considered higher in the standings of NZ cricket than Crowe, simply because enough people aren't familiar with him or his work. For me though, he'd be almost a certainty for the all-time NZ XI, simply because of his perceived class at the crease. I've read the biography written by a family friend of ours, and am happy to lend/post it to anyone who wants to read it.