Insiders and Outsiders

[Goughy]

A new-ish Malcolm Gladwell book 'Insiders' looks at factors apart from talent that impact people.

Sports being an obvious area and one aspect is timing. Some people arrive 10 years too early, some people ten years too late and some time it just right to make the most of their talent and earnings potential.

Insider= Maxed career potential as hit the scene at the right time
Outsider= Someone that who had a career that was not as big as it could have been due to the culture and environment

An example cited as an insider was Kournikova who earned 10 times as much as she would have done if she would have played 10 years earlier due to the internet revolution fueling her marketability.

An example of an outsider was Larry Holmes who didn’t have the personality to 'sell' himself as a great heavyweight champion, lived in the shadow of Ali and didn’t have glamour opponents with which to have mega-fights. Due to this he never got the recognition he undoubtedly deserved and his legacy is less that it would have been if he was ten years earlier or later.

So, for cricket. Insiders and outsiders?

Insider= Shane Warne. Would have been a great whenever he played but he hit the scene when there was a dearth of spin and was seen as the spin bowling messiah. He also had the personality and distinctive looks to make him stand out from the crowd. He also played on the best team in the world. His career was timed to perfection to maximize his profile and success

Outsider- Ali Brown. Scorer of two list A double-hundreds and one of the most destructive batsmen the game has seen. He was branded a clown by The Times "If Brown had appeared on a one-wheeled bike, wearing a silly hat and a red nose, and thrown custard pies at the umpires, he would scarcely have struck a more ridiculous figure than he did yesterday". He was a player that the English establishment was never comfortable with. He debuted for Surrey in 1990 but if he had debuted in 2000 he would now be a key England player and a multi-millionaire.

 

[Pratters]

Good thread and agree with your two choices.

An outsider - Rajinder Goel. Has taken the most Ranji wickets and Gavaskar regarded him as the toughest spin bowler he faced. Didn't even play a test as he was born in the same era as the spin quartet of India.

Another outsider - Darren Lehmann. Class player but missed out on a lot of cricket because he was born in the same era in which there were great Australian batsmen treading the park.

and another on the same grounds bnut not as good as Lehmann - Stuart Law. Could have played 100 tests if he was English.

The South Africans who missed out due to apartheid - Richards et all are also outsiders.

 

[Goughy]

Good thread and agree with your two choices.

An outsider - Rajinder Goel. Has taken the most Ranji wickets and Gavaskar regarded him as the toughest spin bowler he faced. Didn't even play a test as he was born in the same era as the spin quartet of India.

Interesting. I dont know the name. A true outsider. Ill read up on him now.

If he had played in the 90s then he would have got more Tests?

 

[Uppercut]

Brian Lara was very much an insider, timing his arrival perfectly to coincide with Viv Richards's retirement. Meanwhile Shiv Chanderpaul found himself in Lara's shadow for much of his career and is only becoming prominent at a pretty old age.

 

[Goughy]

Brian Lara was very much an insider,

Id not thought of him but it is true. He had the timing (re:Viv), he also had the flashy and attractive style and he got his Test records on the worlds flatest tracks in bore draws and his FC record whilst being dropped 87 times, against a terrible attack and managing to get hit on the head by a bouncer from the slow-medium of John Morris.

Paul Adams is probably another. He was distinctive, was coloured and SA needed a spinner. His profile was sky high. He accomplished far more than his talent should have and if he was born today he would be feasted upon.

 

[Richard]

A few outsiders:
Corrie van Zyl, Eric Simons, Peter Kirsten, Adrian Kuiper.

That was of the later generation - there was another one before that (Clive Rice, Kevin McKenzie, Vince van der Bijl, Jimmy Cook, Garth le Roux) and another one before that (the likes of Barry Richards, Michael Procter etc. who started then had their Test careers truncated). All of whom suffered for the excesses of South Africa's political leaders and, some would say, the use of South Africa's national sportsmen as political pawns.

 

[Pratters]

If he had played in the 90s then he would have got more Tests?

Definitely considering guys like Raju, Chauhan and Kulkarni got a run in the 90s.

 

[Richard]

Brian Lara was very much an insider, timing his arrival perfectly to coincide with Viv Richards's retirement.

Richards himself, too, was indeed such a thing - his debut came the Test after Garry Sobers' last.

I've always thought it truly remarkable that there was a chain of five phenomenal West Indian batsmen:
George Headley played for West Indies from their sophomore series in 1930 until the outbreak of War in 1939 (his career thereafter should not have happened);
Everton Weekes debuted in 1948, the first West Indies game after the War, and played until 1958;
Garfield Sobers (for 4 years a mediocre all-rounder) turned into the best batsman in The World in that same 1958 series as Weekes finished and played until 1974;
Vivian Richards debuted in the very next Test after Sobers' retirement and played until 1991;
Brian Lara came into the team (he'd played a single game beforehand as a replacement player - for Richards) in 1992 the Test after Richards' retirement.

Quite remarkable.

And the chain was finally broken in England in 2007. Though Chanderpaul has indeed stepped-up further still since Lara's retirement, for most of his career he was simply a Lara counterpoint.

 

[superkingdave]

Outsider - Glenn Chapple...if he had started his career 10 years later would probably have a decent test career

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think a lot of players who might've been branded as "outsiders" in the English game are those with strong opinions who wind up the establishment. Ken Higgs is an obvious example, was arguably the best bowler in the country for a decade (which, when you consider who his career overlapped with, is no mean feat) and he played (IIRC) 15 tests.

The prime "insider" for my money is Chris Cowdrey, solid-ish county performer who was suddenly elevated to the England captaincy through what looks very much like nepotism. His father was obviously a legend and his Godfather (Peter May) was the chairman of selectors who called him up.

 

[Goughy]

Outsider - Glenn Chapple...if he had started his career 10 years later would probably have a decent test career

Very true. He was always unfortunate.

Insider- Ben Hollioake. Nice smile, Eng U'19s, outgoing personality, antipodean background, bouncy cricketer but very ordinary.

Any other time and he doesnt ever get a Test apart from when the vogue was young, Australian and allrounder.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Very true. He was always unfortunate.

Insider- Ben Hollioake. Nice smile, Eng U'19s, outgoing personality, antipodean background, bouncy cricketer but very ordinary.

Any other time and he doesnt ever get a Test apart from when the vogue was young, Australian and allrounder.

Not sure about the "Australian" bit; Rikki Clarke played tests too and putative allrounder status is all he had to recommend his selection as well.

 

[wpdavid]

Several outsiders spring to mind from English cricket in the 1990's who would have done better if they'd emerged once Fletcher was in charge - Hick, Ramps & Malcolm spring immediately to mind. Caddick to some extent - if he was 5 years younger, we may be looking at a really good test record instead of a decent one.

From an earlier period, Randall was always something of an outsider. Something of a scapegoat when things went wrong and never given the same leeway as the lads clique that was prevalent at the time. Might actually have done better if he was born 10 years earlier, never mind 20 years later.

Boycott was arguably an outsider because he was born 10 years too late. He'd have still been a shoe-in in the mid50's but wouldn't have had to carry the batting and his personality wouldn't have been an issue in those simpler times. Probably would have been captain by the early 1960's and no-one would have batted an eyelid at his scoring rate.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Still did reasonably well, but Stuart MacGill is probably a pretty good candidate for an outsider. Could've taken 350+ Test wickets.

 

[Richard]

Several outsiders spring to mind from English cricket in the 1990's who would have done better if they'd emerged once Fletcher was in charge - Hick, Ramps & Malcolm spring immediately to mind. Caddick to some extent - if he was 5 years younger, we may be looking at a really good test record instead of a decent one.

Interesting ones, all of those. I've always been absolutely certain that Caddick would have done much better earlier if Fletcher had been around from the start of his career. I'm pretty certain Hick's later difficulties wouldn't have arisen (his earlier ones would have because they were technical). Ramprakash, though, I really don't know whether he'd have done any better.

As for Malcolm, he'd truly have torn DF in two. Loved extreme pace and hated woeful fielders\batsmen. I can't believe he'd not have played more than 18 games (mostly in one-offs) out of 48 between 1992 and 1995/96, but I'm not at all sure he'd have been a constant fixture the way Harmison generally has been. And I'm absolutely certain that no amount of anything would have made Malcolm any better than he was. He was simply a bowler who was mostly very poor and occasionally absolutely superlative, and I don't believe he was ever going to be any more than that whatever was done with his body or mind.

Another outsider was of course Philip Tufnell but he was in the opposite camp to any of the above - he'd never have got a look-in if Duncan Fletcher had been coach throughout his time, and in all likelihood that might well have benefited Team England greatly.

 

[Richard]

Outsider - Glenn Chapple...if he had started his career 10 years later would probably have a decent test career

Martin Bicknell even more so.

 

[Goughy]

Martin Bicknell even more so.

You think so? If Bicknell was around today, I doubt he would get much of a look in.

He may have got more in the 80s but even then Im not sure.

 

[wpdavid]

Martin Bicknell even more so.

Yup, especially as so much of his sucess was in unhelpful conditions at the Oval.

Odd that two of the outstanding English contenders arer Brown & Bicknell given the complaints I often read about Surrey bias at the time.

 

[Richard]

You think so. If Bicknell was around today, I doubt he would get much of a look in.

He may have got more in the 80s but even then Im not sure.

You reckon Chapple was better than Bicknell?

 

[wpdavid]

You think so. If Bicknell was around today, I doubt he would get much of a look in.

He may have got more in the 80s but even then Im not sure.

I think he would now that Hoggard, Jones & Harmison aren't in the side and we've been scratching our heads over who should play instead of them. He'd have a played more games in the 80's simply because almost everyone did. Our bowling stocks really were low then, so you'd figure he'd get a few chances.