Swinging both ways

[BoyBrumby]

Marshall for my money. I remember reading in Simon Hughes's A Bit of Hard Yakka that, so complete was his mastery of the art, that he would actually tell batsmen how he was going to dismiss them, rather like a pool player nominating a pocket. If memory serves he told Gatting he was going to get him with the three card tick (outswinger, outswinger, inswinger) and, true to his word, the Middlesex trencherman was palpably LBW three balls later.

Tragic loss to the sport.

[vic_orthdox]

Damien Fleming could do it, but generally relied more on outswinger plus an off-cutter. Matthew Inness was a very good exponent of it.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by FBU

According to Holding Anderson finds it hard to bowl around the wicket to left handers because of his bowling action.

Yes, you're right - I'd forgotten about that.

He'd have to do an incredible amount of swaying around to avoid running on the danger (protected as it now is) area. And this is after having to modify his followthrough in 2003 to avoid running on it from over-the-wicket.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by oitoitoi

There have been a number of decent swing bowlers, Hoggard, Sidebottom briefly and Zaheer Khan recently. Anderson can swing it both ways nicely given the conditions, but his hideous inconsistency holds him back, personally I believe it's because of his action, it's conducive to swing but difficult to repeat. I thought Jason Gillespie given the conditions could swing it both ways well. Shoaib Akhtar could be absolutely deadly with those inswinging yorkers and high speed away swingers, though again I'd say he was stronger with the old ball. I'm not sure Shane Bond swung the ball back in too much but his away swinger was awesome. I've seen few bowlers with as much control over swing as Chaminda Vaas, often forgotten but he could move it both ways pretty much on a string at times.

I've never seen Shoaib swing the old ball out or the new ball in. He's basically the same as Waqar and Imran in that he swung both old and new ball prodigiously, but which way it went depended on whether the swing was conventional or reverse.

Bond is a strange one. First time I saw him I thought his stock-ball was the outswinger, but eventually it became clear it was the inswinger. Sometimes I got the impression he was really trying to swing it away but just couldn't do it, his natural inswinger was just too strong.

Can't say I ever saw Jason Gillespie bowl an inswinger TBH. Not to say he never did.

Hoggard and Sidebottom have both struggled considerably with their inability to bowl the one that curves into a like-hander (ie, Sidebottom bowl an outswinger to a RHB, Hoggard bowl an inswinger to a RHB). They can make it go the other way with reverse-swing, but both only get minimal amounts of reverse-swing, compared to the lavish conventional-swing both can muster almost without trying.

Zaheer Khan, though, is (now - he wasn't for most of his career) almost a latter-day Wasim, without the accuracy or the pace. He can swing new ball in and out; he can swing old ball in and out; he's a left-armer, and best of all he can bowl around- or over-the-wicket to equal effect.

Chaminda Vaas only ever bowls inswingers. New or old ball. He's a remarkable case. I've never seen someone be able to swing the new and old ball in the same direction but not the other direction, with either. What makes him so special (when on-song) is his ability to cut the ball off the pitch without losing any pace. And he can cut it in or out.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by subshakerz

Johnson appears be getting there...

Does Johnson actually bowl an outswinger, as such? I've only ever seen him - like Michael Kasprowicz before him (and obviously in the other direction as Kasprowicz was a right-armer) - bowl the swinger in one direction and the cutter in the other.

And more oddly still, with the cutter being the stock-ball and the swinger the change-up.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by vic_orthdox

Matthew Inness was a very good exponent of it.

Remember Craig telling me that in about 2001. Went absolutely out of all way to get a glimpse of him when he played for Northants after that.

Wasn't disappointed.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by Richard

Hoggard and Sidebottom have both struggled considerably with their inability to bowl the one that curves into a like-hander (ie, Sidebottom bowl an outswinger to a RHB, Hoggard bowl an inswinger to a RHB). They can make it go the other way with reverse-swing, but both only get minimal amounts of reverse-swing, compared to the lavish conventional-swing both can muster almost without trying.

Hmm- i remember Hoggy setting up Graeme Smith several times with balls leaving him back when he was his bunny. Maybe the angle just made it look like they were swinging away, it's hard to tell sometimes.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by Richard

Does Johnson actually bowl an outswinger, as such? I've only ever seen him - like Michael Kasprowicz before him (and obviously in the other direction as Kasprowicz was a right-armer) - bowl the swinger in one direction and the cutter in the other.

And more oddly still, with the cutter being the stock-ball and the swinger the change-up.

It definitely moves in the air towards the slips. I'm not sure why exactly, his seam position doesn't look like it would allow that, but it certainly happens.

[oitoitoi]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

It definitely moves in the air towards the slips. I'm not sure why exactly, his seam position doesn't look like it would allow that, but it certainly happens.

Are you sure, it usually just looks like angle to me.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

Hmm- i remember Hoggy setting up Graeme Smith several times with balls leaving him back when he was his bunny. Maybe the angle just made it look like they were swinging away, it's hard to tell sometimes.

Hoggard was excellent around that time (not just against Smith) at bowling straight-on balls which were apparently undetectable from his stock-standard out(to-the-RHB)swinger. I honestly never saw him specifically make it go the other way.

He can of course also bowl an off-cutter, but it's nowhere near as good as Chaminda Vaas'.

[vic_orthdox]

Johnson gets the ball to curve away. It's sort of like the same thing as when you throw a jugs ball - the natural path (for a left hand thrower) is for it to swing away from the batsman, slide across. And for the right hand thrower, it swings back in to a RHB. Can also be seen when throwing the ball over a long distance.

Supposedly Rob Cassell, who is/was a super talented bowler who was struck down with numerous back injuries, used this ball as his variation ball to his stock outswinger. It meant that the seam actually came out with the ball pointing towards slip still, but the ball just slung in late rather than going away from the batsman.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by oitoitoi

Are you sure, it usually just looks like angle to me.

Saw the hawkeye red-path thingy of it a few times during the series in Australia (where he bowled it all the time) and it did indeed curve slightly in the air. Much to my surprise tbh, always presumed the same as you.

[DaRick]

Originally Posted by Richard

Does Johnson actually bowl an outswinger, as such? I've only ever seen him - like Michael Kasprowicz before him (and obviously in the other direction as Kasprowicz was a right-armer) - bowl the swinger in one direction and the cutter in the other.

And more oddly still, with the cutter being the stock-ball and the swinger the change-up.

Well, his outswinger is the inswinger to lefties. He also reverses the ball inwards, sometimes both ways in the air (one delivery to nail Morne Morkel at Melbourne, for instance). He bowls the cutter away from the right-handers. If you ask me, he can generate reverse-swing more consistently.

Brett Lee can swing it both ways conventionally, although only a marginal amount and his inswinger is often offline. He can also reverse it inwards prodigiously (ala to Prasanna Jayawardene at Brisbane).

Glenn McGrath developed an outswinger, but he was, of course, never known as a swinger.

Blokes like Mike Hendrick, Chris Old and Geoff Arnold were classic English swing bowlers - they could make the ball do anything in the right conditions, but were otherwise fairly useless.

Nathan Bracken can swing it both ways prodigiously in the right conditions, but his relative lack of pace helps.

RP Singh had a booming outswinger and could get some reverse swing, but he was often unfamiliar with such trivialities as economy rate and consistency.

Ben Hilfenhaus just has an outswinger, which is more effective when conditions suit.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by vic_orthdox

Johnson gets the ball to curve away. It's sort of like the same thing as when you throw a jugs ball - the natural path (for a left hand thrower) is for it to swing away from the batsman, slide across. And for the right hand thrower, it swings back in to a RHB. Can also be seen when throwing the ball over a long distance.

I can see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'd call that swing as such. It's just the combination of his low arm and the natural cut that his action puts on the ball. By swing I'm referring to the putting of the seam upright, canting it in the standard direction, and making it swing. He certainly does this when swinging it into the RHB.

As I say though, I've never studied it with collossal detail so I'm not claiming he doesn't bowl a (to-the-RHB) outswinger, just that when I have seen him move it away it's been a combo of angle, low arm and natural cutter.

[vic_orthdox]

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you, hence why I never used the term "swing". Still, if he can continue to combine that with conventional swing inwards as he did in South Africa, it will be very effective.

One reason why you rarely see people playing Test cricket who swing the ball both ways is because for the large majority of bowlers it takes a change in action that is easily picked by batsmen at district of FC level, let alone International. More subtle changes generally work far more effectively at that level, because they can be disguised easily.