Mitchell Johnson vs Allan Davidson

[Richard]

Nonetheless, as a rule there is something in the suspicion that batsmen are generally given far more rope to hang themselves with than seam-bowlers are.

MSP was a different case because of both the "you must have variation" nonsense and the fact that he was a cult-hero who had to become obviously terrible to be dropped else heads would roll.

(And before anyone starts telling us that selectors should do their job whether they get sacked for it or not - would you apply that principle? I think not)

 

[four_or_six]

There's no-one in our team anywhere near as good as McGrath, hasn't been for ages, and the couple of recent types who had the ability to be somewhere close to him (Caddick and Fraser) failed to do so for different reasons.

There's no-one anywhere near as good as McGrath in any team very often.

I didn't mean it like that, in terms of having someone as good as McGrath. I more meant whether the senior bowlers, who I guess include Flintoff, Sidebottom, Harmison, are helping our younger bowlers in the same way that it seemed to me McGrath looked out for Johnson, Lee, Watson.

 

[Uppercut]

Nonetheless, as a rule there is something in the suspicion that batsmen are generally given far more rope to hang themselves with than seam-bowlers are.

MSP was a different case because of both the "you must have variation" nonsense and the fact that he was a cult-hero who had to become obviously terrible to be dropped else heads would roll.

(And before anyone starts telling us that selectors should do their job whether they get sacked for it or not - would you apply that principle? I think not)

The variation stuff was irrelevant- Swann's a perfectly good spinner, and outperformed Monty so much in India it was embarrassing. But still Monty kept his place when they reverted to one spinner.

 

[andruid]

I never even knew he bowled left-arm. Which perhaps shows how much of a nonenity he was.

he didn't the non-entityness is what counts

 

[Richard]

I didn't mean it like that, in terms of having someone as good as McGrath. I more meant whether the senior bowlers, who I guess include Flintoff, Sidebottom, Harmison, are helping our younger bowlers in the same way that it seemed to me McGrath looked out for Johnson, Lee, Watson.

It's all very well being senior, but if you're senior and not very good, you're no more use than a good bowling-coach is.

In fact, far less.

Good bowler doesn't always = good bowling tutor. McGrath does strike me as rather a good one as a matter of fact, as his predecessor Lillee has proven to be. Donald seems similar.

TBH I can't see Flintoff really being much of a mentor figure. He's too much of a, well, eternal kid. I can TOtally identify with that.

 

[Richard]

The variation stuff was irrelevant- Swann's a perfectly good spinner, and outperformed Monty so much in India it was embarrassing. But still Monty kept his place when they reverted to one spinner.

It may have been irrelevant in the 1 Test MSP played in West Indies in the just-concluded tour. But it certainly wasn't in the 2 years prior to that.

 

[four_or_six]

It's all very well being senior, but if you're senior and not very good, you're no more use than a good bowling-coach is.

In fact, far less.

Good bowler doesn't always = good bowling tutor. McGrath does strike me as rather a good one as a matter of fact, as his predecessor Lillee has proven to be. Donald seems similar.

TBH I can't see Flintoff really being much of a mentor figure. He's too much of a, well, eternal kid. I can TOtally identify with that.

I just think it's one of our big weaknesses at the moment, not having anyone like that around.

 

[Richard]

It's one of our many weaknesses for sure; whether it's one of the bigger ones I'm less certain.

I don't think that having someone like that around currently would make a massive difference TBH. It'd obviously not be unhelpful, but such is the nature of the, well, Stuart Broads, that I'm not convinced a really good mentor is up with the biggest needs as things stand.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I just think it's one of our big weaknesses at the moment, not having anyone like that around.

I think it's at least partly due to the fact that a lot of our senior bowlers don't feel secure in their places & would view younger bucks as threats so maybe don't feel disposed to hasten their own exits by passing the wisdom on. McGrath was obviously set in stone.

Only really Fred is a cast-iron certainty nowadays and he still probably misses more games than he plays and, at the risk of agreeing with Dicko, doesn't strike one as one of the deeper thinkers on the sport.

 

[Uppercut]

It may have been irrelevant in the 1 Test MSP played in West Indies in the just-concluded tour. But it certainly wasn't in the 2 years prior to that.

No, i don't agree. When sticking with Monty despite his shortcomings they didn't even want to know if there was anyone better.

 

[Richard]

Swann was never going to have any effect in the vast majority of the Tests MSP was ineffective in up to the end of calendar-year 2008 either.

 

[aussie]

Nothing wrong with Mitch's fielding. One of the best I've ever seen for a fast bowler (obviosly never saw Davidson but presume that at best he was as good as Johnson)

Agree totally that this debate is very premature. Davidson played for Australia for ten or so years. Johnson has only 2 years. This debate is atleast 5 years off.

Yes but Johnson has developed faster than Davidson into a WC bowler (whether he drops off is another debate). Davo debuted in the 53 ashes & it was until SA 57/58 to 63 Ashes that he was at his best.

So for me if Johnson has a super Ashes series, the debate can start seriously this september.

 

[oitoitoi]

Has anyone here actually seen Davidson bowl or is this purely on stats? I seriously doubt Johnson will ever match his bowling average mind.

 

[Richard]

Davidson had a wonderful bowling-action - almost a left-arm version of Glenn McGrath. Almost. And he could certainly do things with the ball as well - he wasn't just someone who put the ball there and hoped for mistakes.

Well, it's possible (NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE, JUST A POSSIBILITY) that he was such a thing for the first 4 years of his career, as he was very economical and not remotely penetrative in said 4 years. But later on he took wickets at a fine rate, and I guess he swung, cut and seamed it to will.

As I've already said - the only shame is that he was 29 before he became all that good in Tests. And for an Australian in those days, that wasn't too long before you generally had to retire, as the money just wasn't all that good. So he really only had 4 years at the top.

 

[Briony]

Davidson had a wonderful bowling-action - almost a left-arm version of Glenn McGrath. Almost. And he could certainly do things with the ball as well - he wasn't just someone who put the ball there and hoped for mistakes.

Well, it's possible (NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE, JUST A POSSIBILITY) that he was such a thing for the first 4 years of his career, as he was very economical and not remotely penetrative in said 4 years. But later on he took wickets at a fine rate, and I guess he swung, cut and seamed it to will.

As I've already said - the only shame is that he was 29 before he became all that good in Tests. And for an Australian in those days, that wasn't too long before you generally had to retire, as the money just wasn't all that good. So he really only had 4 years at the top.

The biggest problem I foresee with Johnson is that his action looks a bit ragged and may be unsustainable. He also seems to rely on pitches to help him. His form on flat tracks has been disappointing. Look at him for instance in the second innings in Perth and in Cape Town, he didn't look a threat at all.

 

[aussie]

Davidson had a wonderful bowling-action - almost a left-arm version of Glenn McGrath. Almost. And he could certainly do things with the ball as well - he wasn't just someone who put the ball there and hoped for mistakes.

Well, it's possible (NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE, JUST A POSSIBILITY) that he was such a thing for the first 4 years of his career, as he was very economical and not remotely penetrative in said 4 years. But later on he took wickets at a fine rate, and I guess he swung, cut and seamed it to will.

As I've already said - the only shame is that he was 29 before he became all that good in Tests. And for an Australian in those days, that wasn't too long before you generally had to retire, as the money just wasn't all that good. So he really only had 4 years at the top.

Hmm, McGrath??

I dunno B, i have the 60/61 series on tape & i'd say Davidson approach to the crease & action is nothing like McGrath. Bracken is the best modern day comparison i'd say.

 

[stephen]

The biggest problem I foresee with Johnson is that his action looks a bit ragged and may be unsustainable. He also seems to rely on pitches to help him. His form on flat tracks has been disappointing. Look at him for instance in the second innings in Perth and in Cape Town, he didn't look a threat at all.

Well I think we can cut him a little slack with Perth - his devastating spell there wasn't exactly on a juicy wicket. The pitch was perfect for batting, he just had that special glint in his eye.

 

[Uppercut]

The biggest problem I foresee with Johnson is that his action looks a bit ragged and may be unsustainable. He also seems to rely on pitches to help him. His form on flat tracks has been disappointing. Look at him for instance in the second innings in Perth and in Cape Town, he didn't look a threat at all.

I don't think that's because of the pitches, it's just that noone can perform in every single innings of every single game. As stephen says, there was nothing in the pitch during the Perth first innings either and Johnson took 8.

 

[Burgey]

Well I think we can cut him a little slack with Perth - his devastating spell there wasn't exactly on a juicy wicket. The pitch was perfect for batting, he just had that special glint in his eye.

And tbf he bowled manfully for Australia in India as well. On flat pitches he just keeps charging in all day which is a huge asset to the team.

 

[DaRick]

The biggest problem I foresee with Johnson is that his action looks a bit ragged and may be unsustainable. He also seems to rely on pitches to help him. His form on flat tracks has been disappointing. Look at him for instance in the second innings in Perth and in Cape Town, he didn't look a threat at all.

Also look at him in Adelaide, where his record is surprisingly good.

There were other factors when it came to Perth and Cape Town. In Perth, he had no-one to support him (I think about Brett Lee when I say this) and still managed 11 wickets. In Cape Town, he was pretty poor, but so were most of his comrades (especially McGain).