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Thread: The Greatest All-Rounder of All Time

  1. #121
    U19 Debutant MrIncredible's Avatar
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    Miller is not good enough to make the team as a bat. Maybe at his peak yes (doubt it) but overall 37 is not good enough to make ne body's all time XI's batting lineup.

  2. #122
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    Miller was clearly a great all-rounder but, realistically, with the bat alone it's hard to see a way for him to get into an all-time convict middle order past the likes of both Chappells, Border, Ponting, both Waughs, Harvey and Bradman; arguably a whole host of others from recent times (Martyn, Langer, Boon, Jones among them); and a galaxy of pre-War stars (including Hill, Jackson, McCabe). Bearing in mind also that you can have at most 4 middle-order bats given that Gilchrist would (for most people's money) bat at 7.
    My whole contention was: had he not missed his prime, gotten injured, etc, I could see him doing it. Neil Harvey averaged 50 in FC cricket and Miller 49. He clearly had the talent.
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  3. #123
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    It is well chronicled, admittedly in the main by those of a similar ilk, that Keith Miller never let anything as trivial as cricket get in the way of his enjoyment of life - had he had the mentality of the Don then his achievements might have been bradmanesque

  4. #124
    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    My whole contention was: had he not missed his prime, gotten injured, etc, I could see him doing it. Neil Harvey averaged 50 in FC cricket and Miller 49. He clearly had the talent.

    Yeah I know that's what you're saying, but I just don't think I agree. Mind you, I know less about him than you, never watched him play and haven't even seen footage of him so my knowledge is pretty limited.


  5. #125
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    my father said that miller sometimes turned up to games late with a hangover, didn't always appeal so as to give the batsman a chance, sometimes gave his wicket away to make the match closer and things of that nature. one of my dad's teacher's was peter philpott who played with miller, don't know if the stories are exaggerated or not but if there is some truth in them it makes you wonder what his stats could have looked like if he had a different attitude.

  6. #126
    U19 Debutant MrIncredible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    My whole contention was: had he not missed his prime, gotten injured, etc, I could see him doing it. Neil Harvey averaged 50 in FC cricket and Miller 49. He clearly had the talent.
    And maybe if WI selectors hadnt selected Sobers at such an early age (17) and had given him time in domestic cricket to mature, and maybe had his knees held up etc etc We can only go by what they achieved overall my friend.

  7. #127
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    If we're going to on ifs and buts then Ian Botham leaves them all standing. If he'd spent even an average amount of time in the nets working on his game he could have been the best England batsman of his generation.............but he didn't.

  8. #128
    Hall of Fame Member aussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    It's the high-point of his career, half-way through it. From 52 onwards he also had several back and knee injuries IIRC to add to his already limited physicality due to his war injuries.

    When you look at his cricketing career it's a shame. He missed his absolute prime and could have possibly been what MrIncredible is after (a player who can genuinely get into an all-time team with both bat and ball). Add also the fact that after the war he didn't see it as important as he used to. But I guess these things add to his mystique.
    Yea i agree. But i have always wondered if WW2 never existed at what point in the 40s would Miller have actually debuted?.

    Since its clear he took up bowling pretty late. Read the 1st victory test article.

    Plus if you check FC states from for Victoria from 1937/38 up until the start of the war, he never bowled. So that kind of tells for sure, he was always a top batsman.

  9. #129
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Yeah, I reckon you're right Aussie.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    If we're going to on ifs and buts then Ian Botham leaves them all standing. If he'd spent even an average amount of time in the nets working on his game he could have been the best England batsman of his generation.............but he didn't.
    I agree its not accurate to judge based on hypotheticals. Miller was a great player but his record shouldn't be embellished by bringing his FC average or how he may possibly have played in his prime. Based on what Ikki posted, his career seemed to consist of a first half when he was an excellent bat but underused bowler, followed by being an average bat and a very good bowler. He didn't seem to peak with both disciplines at the same time.

  11. #131
    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    If he had played during the War years, he might have lost interest in cricket earlier and retired much sooner. Who can say?

  12. #132
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subshakerz View Post
    I agree its not accurate to judge based on hypotheticals. Miller was a great player but his record shouldn't be embellished by bringing his FC average or how he may possibly have played in his prime. Based on what Ikki posted, his career seemed to consist of a first half when he was an excellent bat but underused bowler, followed by being an average bat and a very good bowler. He didn't seem to peak with both disciplines at the same time.
    Not really. He was used as a bowler pretty much the same throughout his career. IIRC he was just limited to shorter spells than one would give someone of his talent. You can't really bowl someone with a crook back for 35-40 overs a test. Still, he has a great average and a sublime SR for his time. I really don't think you can question his quality as a bowler, he was up there. Lindwall was better but I've read there were times when that question was in doubt. Such is the man's talent that he took up bowling so late and to perform as well as the best in the world.

    Aussie is right though because Miller essentially became a front-line bowler in the Aussie side as that was what was needed and he hit the ground running. He was always a top batsman though - which is the question here, not his bowling. It's strange how someone who essentially did as well as Neil Harvey in FC cricket ended up with a lower average whereas everyone still regarded him so highly - he batted #5 for the Invincibles. For a time (half his career) he averaged 45 with the bat and 22 with the ball so he certainly was good with both at the same time. Still, questions can be asked why his batting dropped off.

    The Sean is more knowledgeable than I, I hope he kicks in with his 2 bob.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    If he had played during the War years, he might have lost interest in cricket earlier and retired much sooner. Who can say?
    LOL, I mean had the war not even existed...not had he played then while it was going on.
    Last edited by Ikki; 13-08-2009 at 02:02 AM.

  13. #133
    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    Millers batting form was frequently affected by the bowling load he carried. His inability to function as well with a full load in both disciplines should probably count against him a bit in this kind of elite company. He had a persistant back injury that would become a distraction when he bowled a lot of overs. That said, it also means that too often we didn't see his best with the bat for sustained periods. 37 certainly doesn't reflect what all the judges who saw him bat say about his ability - the player who the descriptions of witnesses always puts me in mind of is Adam Gilchrist. I haven't done the work
    in Statsguru but I'd suspect his pressure-on average is much better than his career average. He was a player who relished the contest and being the man for the moment, but who had little stomach for burying an already defeated opposition or feasting on inferior opponents.

    to answer an earlier point there are many stories of him showing up hungover (or still drunk tbh) in his evening wear from the previous night, but none I'm aware of to suggest it ever affected his performance. One story is that he showed up to a shield match bleary eyed in his tux, just made it onto the field looking very green indeed and told Davidson he wouldn't be able to bowl. He got out to the middle, saw the green top pitch, snatched the ball from Davo and bowled unchanged through the session, having decimated the opposition by lunch.
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  14. #134
    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    In an all time team, where he wouldn't be one of only two top drawer quicks in the team and could be used as a shock bowler for a couple of spells a day, i'd back him to average mid-40s at least.

  15. #135
    International Regular JBH001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt79 View Post
    Millers batting form was frequently affected by the bowling load he carried. His inability to function as well with a full load in both disciplines should probably count against him a bit in this kind of elite company. He had a persistant back injury that would become a distraction when he bowled a lot of overs. That said, it also means that too often we didn't see his best with the bat for sustained periods. 37 certainly doesn't reflect what all the judges who saw him bat say about his ability - the player who the descriptions of witnesses always puts me in mind of is Adam Gilchrist. I haven't done the work
    in Statsguru but I'd suspect his pressure-on average is much better than his career average. He was a player who relished the contest and being the man for the moment, but who had little stomach for burying an already defeated opposition or feasting on inferior opponents.
    TBPH, I think that buying into the Miller 'myth'. From my recollection of the statistical record, he did indeed, to a great extent, feast on average and inferior opponents, and non/low pressure situations. Not that there is anything wrong in that mind you - I just dont buy the "Miller didnt try hard enough because he didnt care" argument.

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