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Thread: The Greatest All-Rounder of All Time

  1. #46
    State Regular Maximus0723's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    Based on Post WW 2 Stats minus minnows here are the allrounders short listed

    Code:
    All Rounders											
    											
    N Kapil Dev (India) 	129 	5172 	163 	30.97 	8 	430 	9/83 	29.61 	23 	64 	0
    IT Botham (Eng)  	102 	5200 	208 	33.54 	14 	383 	8/34 	28.40 	27 	120 	0
    SM Pollock (SA) 	100 	3630 	111 	32.12 	2 	389 	7/87 	23.74 	15 	62 	0
    Imran Khan (Pak) 	88 	3807 	136 	37.69 	6 	362 	8/58 	22.81 	23 	28 	0
    A Flintoff (Eng) 	70 	3562 	167 	32.38 	5 	202 	5/58 	33.23 	2 	50 	0
    AW Greig (Eng) 	58 	3599 	148 	40.43 	8 	141 	8/86 	32.20 	6 	87 	0
    KR Miller (Aus) 	55 	2958 	147 	36.97 	7 	170 	7/60 	22.97 	7 	38 	0
    CL Cairns (NZ) 	52 	2756 	158 	32.04 	3 	166 	7/27 	31.96 	10 	14 	0
    MH Mankad (India) 	44 	2109 	231 	31.47 	5 	162 	8/52 	32.32 	8 	33 	0
    TL Goddard (SA) 	41 	2516 	112 	34.46 	1 	123 	6/53 	26.22 	5 	48 	0
    											
    Bowling All Rounders											
    											
    Wasim Akram (Pak) 	92	2458 	123 	21.18 	2 	367 	7/119 	23.78 	21 	39 	0
    Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 	86 	3124 	151* 	27.16 	2 	431 	9/52 	22.29 	36 	39 	0
    R Benaud (Aus) 	63 	2201 	122 	24.45 	3 	248 	7/72 	27.03 	16 	65 	0
    TE Bailey (Eng) 	61 	2290 	134* 	29.74 	1 	132 	7/34 	29.21 	5 	32 	0
    R Illingworth (Eng) 	61 	1836 	113 	23.24 	2 	122 	6/29 	31.20 	3 	45 	0
    RR Lindwall (Aus) 	61 	1502 	118 	21.15 	2 	228 	7/38 	23.03 	12 	26 	0.
    BR Taylor (NZ)  	30  	898  	124  	20.40  	2  	111  	7/74  	26.60  	4  	10  	0
    											
    											
    Batting All Rounders											
    											
    JH Kallis (SA) 	118 	9198 	186 	51.38 	27 	219 	6/54 	33.94 	3 	131 	0
    GS Sobers (WI) 	93 	8032 	365* 	57.78 	26 	235 	6/73 	34.03 	6 	109 	0
    SR Waugh (Aus) 	163 	10381 	200 	48.96 	29 	92 	5/28 	36.75 	3 	108 	0
    ST Jayasuriya (SL) 	92 	5865 	340 	38.58 	11 	73 	5/34 	39.28 	1 	68 	0
    Mudassar (Pak)	76 	4114 	231 	38.09 	10 	66 	6/32 	38.36 	1 	48 	0
    BE Congdon (NZ) 	61 	3448 	176 	32.22 	7 	59 	5/65 	36.50 	1 	44 	0
    JR Reid (NZ)  	58  	3428  	142  	33.28  	6  	85  	6/60  	33.35  	1  	43  	1
    Mushtaq Mohd (Pak)	57	3643 	201 	39.17 	10 	79 	5/28 	29.22 	3 	42 	0
    FMM Worrell (WI) 	51 	3860 	261 	49.48 	9 	69 	7/70 	38.72 	2 	43 	0
    											
    Wicket Keeping All Rounders											
    											
    											
    IA Healy (Aus) 	118 	4351 	161* 	27.53 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	364 	29
    MV Boucher (SA) 	111 	4208 	122* 	28.62 	3 	1 	1/6 	6.00 	0 	390 	18
    RW Marsh (Aus) 	96 	3633 	132 	26.51 	3 	0 	- 	- 	0 	343 	12
    APE Knott (Eng) 	95 	4389 	135 	32.75 	5 	- 	- 	- 	- 	250 	19
    AC Gilchrist (Aus)	89 	5143 	204* 	46.33 	15 	- 	- 	- 	- 	351 	32
    SMH Kirmani (India)	88	2759 	102 	27.04 	2 	1 	1/9 	13.00 	0 	160 	38
    PJL Dujon (WI) 	79 	3146 	139 	31.46 	5 	- 	- 	- 	- 	265 	5
    AJ Stewart (Eng) 	76 	4057 	173 	32.98 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	216 	14
    Moin Khan (Pak) 	62 	2459 	137 	28.92 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	122 	20
    RD Jacobs (WI) 	56 	2249 	118 	26.77 	3 	- 	- 	- 	- 	176 	10
    AC Parore (NZ) 	56 	2122 	110 	25.87 	2 	- 	- 	- 	- 	159 	7
    A Flower (Zim) 	51 	4166 	232* 	52.73 	11 	- 	- 	- 	- 	133 	7
    JHB Waite (SA) 	49 	2336 	134 	30.33 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	124 	17
    KC Sangakkara (SL)	40	2658 	230 	39.67 	6 	- 	- 	- 	- 	99 	14
    Kamran Akmal (Pak)	38	2008 	158* 	34.62 	6 	- 	- 	- 	- 	121 	18
    Pl feel free to add, delete, debate before we start the first round of polls.
    where did u get these stats from?

  2. #47
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    I don't know how this is going to end, but let me just state that there are very few 'true' all-rounders out there.

    You'd have to say the top of the pile would be guys like Keith Miller, Imran Khan, Adam Gilchrist, Ian Botham.

    I always see Sobers, Kallis and Greig as batsmen who bowled (ie - they never shouldered a 'primary bowling load').

    If you're looking at wicket-keeping all-rounders, clearly it's Gilchrist and then daylight (2.5 times more centuries than any of the other keeper/batsmen) - which is why I'd rate him with those others at the top of the pack! And it's also a massive reason that the teams he played in were so dominant...

  3. #48
    International Regular JBH001's Avatar
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    Not saying this is a bad idea, or anything, but I think it would be nice to have a bit of a break before we had another round of voting and player vs player comparisons. That said, a reminder to bagapath, to do that combined test/odi XI (70/71 - 2009) sometime in the future when he has the time, and if still inclined.

  4. #49
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Having spent much of my formative years watching cricket, I shall select a player from 'my' era - one of the very best batsmen of his day, an international standard seam bowler, a more than adequate leg spin bowler, a very reasonable off spin bowler, a decent slipper and the finest leg slip I ever saw.

    GSS.

    Whilst I do not necessarily disagree with those who say "well, he wasn't a main-line bowler" - when he came into the West Indies side, they had Ramadhin and Valentine to look after the twirling. When he was at his peak, they had Hall, Griffith and Gibbs as main line bowlers. At the end, the seam department was Julien and Keith Boyce. He still managed 235 wickets that those guys left over.
    Last edited by luckyeddie; 25-03-2009 at 07:27 PM.
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  5. #50
    School Boy/Girl Captain steve132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldmancraigy View Post
    I don't know how this is going to end, but let me just state that there are very few 'true' all-rounders out there.

    You'd have to say the top of the pile would be guys like Keith Miller, Imran Khan, Adam Gilchrist, Ian Botham.

    I always see Sobers, Kallis and Greig as batsmen who bowled (ie - they never shouldered a 'primary bowling load').

    If you're looking at wicket-keeping all-rounders, clearly it's Gilchrist and then daylight (2.5 times more centuries than any of the other keeper/batsmen) - which is why I'd rate him with those others at the top of the pack! And it's also a massive reason that the teams he played in were so dominant...
    This is not true of Sobers. From 1962 onwards (i.e. the second half of his career in international cricket) he was regarded as one of the West Indies' four leading bowlers. He frequently opened the bowling, and took more Test wickets for West Indies during the 1960's than anyone other than Lance Gibbs.

  6. #51
    International Vice-Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001 View Post
    Not saying this is a bad idea, or anything, but I think it would be nice to have a bit of a break before we had another round of voting and player vs player comparisons. That said, a reminder to bagapath, to do that combined test/odi XI (70/71 - 2009) sometime in the future when he has the time, and if still inclined.
    sure JBH. will give it a month at least before starting these polls. will list out the pre war all rounders by today and leave it for the time being. am ready to work on the combined XI polls. may be we will do that as soon as the current poll ends.

  7. #52
    International Vice-Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus0723 View Post
    where did u get these stats from?
    from cricinfo stats guru. i had set filters for min criteria for each category and generated the lists.

  8. #53
    International Vice-Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Based on Pre WW2 stats

    Code:
    All Rounders
    
    GA Faulkner (SA)  	25  	1754  	204  	40.79  	4  	82  	7/84  	26.58  	4  	20  	0
    WW Armstrong (Aus) 	50 	2863 	159* 	38.68 	6 	87 	6/35 	33.59 	3 	44 	0 
    C Kelleway (Aus) 	26 	1422 	147 	37.42 	3 	52 	5/33 	32.36 	1 	24 	0 
    JM Gregory (Aus) 	24 	1146 	119 	36.96 	2 	85 	7/69 	31.15 	4 	37 	0
    FE Woolley (Eng) 	64 	3283 	154 	36.07 	5 	83 	7/76 	33.91 	4 	64 	0 
    MA Noble (Aus) 	42 	1997 	133 	30.25 	1 	121 	7/17 	25.00 	9 	26 	0 
    W Rhodes (Eng) 	58 	2325 	179 	30.19 	2 	127 	8/68 	26.96 	6 	60 	0 
    G Ulyett (Eng) 	 	25 	949 	149 	24.33 	1 	50 	7/36 	20.40 	1 	19 	0 
    G Giffen (Aus) 		31 	1238 	161 	23.35 	1 	103 	7/117 	27.09 	7 	24 	0 
    JH Sinclair (SA) 	25 	1069 	106 	23.23 	3 	63 	6/26 	31.68 	1 	9 	0 
    
    Batting All Rounder
    
    WR Hammond (Eng)  	77  	6883  	336*  	61.45  	22  	83  	5/36  	37.77  	2  	101  	0
    
    Bowling All Rounder
    
    MW Tate (Eng)  	39  	1198  	100*  	25.48  	1  	155  	6/42  	26.16  	7  	11  	0
    
    Wicket Keeping All Rounders
    
    WAS Oldfield (Aus) 	54 	1427 	65* 	22.65 	0 	- 	- 	- 	- 	130 	78 	52 
    LEG Ames (Eng) 	44 	2387 	149 	43.40 	8 	- 	- 	- 	- 	95 	72 	23 
    AFA Lilley (Eng) 	35 	903 	84 	20.52 	0 	1 	1/23 	23.00 	0 	92 	70 	22
    H Carter (Aus) 	 	28 	873 	72 	22.97 	0 	- 	- 	- 	- 	65 	44 	21
    HB Cameron (SA) 	26 	1239 	90 	30.21 	0 	- 	- 	- 	- 	51 	39 	12
    will comibine this with the post world war 2 list when the polls are conducted after a few weeks.

  9. #54
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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  10. #55
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    the best all-rounder - sobers, by some distance the greatest cricketer that ever lived...
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  11. #56
    International Coach Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    Based on Post WW 2 Stats minus minnows here are the allrounders short listed

    Code:
    All Rounders											
    											
    N Kapil Dev (India) 	129 	5172 	163 	30.97 	8 	430 	9/83 	29.61 	23 	64 	0
    IT Botham (Eng)  	102 	5200 	208 	33.54 	14 	383 	8/34 	28.40 	27 	120 	0
    SM Pollock (SA) 	100 	3630 	111 	32.12 	2 	389 	7/87 	23.74 	15 	62 	0
    Imran Khan (Pak) 	88 	3807 	136 	37.69 	6 	362 	8/58 	22.81 	23 	28 	0
    A Flintoff (Eng) 	70 	3562 	167 	32.38 	5 	202 	5/58 	33.23 	2 	50 	0
    AW Greig (Eng) 	58 	3599 	148 	40.43 	8 	141 	8/86 	32.20 	6 	87 	0
    KR Miller (Aus) 	55 	2958 	147 	36.97 	7 	170 	7/60 	22.97 	7 	38 	0
    CL Cairns (NZ) 	52 	2756 	158 	32.04 	3 	166 	7/27 	31.96 	10 	14 	0
    MH Mankad (India) 	44 	2109 	231 	31.47 	5 	162 	8/52 	32.32 	8 	33 	0
    TL Goddard (SA) 	41 	2516 	112 	34.46 	1 	123 	6/53 	26.22 	5 	48 	0
    											
    Bowling All Rounders											
    											
    Wasim Akram (Pak) 	92	2458 	123 	21.18 	2 	367 	7/119 	23.78 	21 	39 	0
    Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 	86 	3124 	151* 	27.16 	2 	431 	9/52 	22.29 	36 	39 	0
    R Benaud (Aus) 	63 	2201 	122 	24.45 	3 	248 	7/72 	27.03 	16 	65 	0
    TE Bailey (Eng) 	61 	2290 	134* 	29.74 	1 	132 	7/34 	29.21 	5 	32 	0
    R Illingworth (Eng) 	61 	1836 	113 	23.24 	2 	122 	6/29 	31.20 	3 	45 	0
    RR Lindwall (Aus) 	61 	1502 	118 	21.15 	2 	228 	7/38 	23.03 	12 	26 	0.
    BR Taylor (NZ)  	30  	898  	124  	20.40  	2  	111  	7/74  	26.60  	4  	10  	0
    											
    											
    Batting All Rounders											
    											
    JH Kallis (SA) 	118 	9198 	186 	51.38 	27 	219 	6/54 	33.94 	3 	131 	0
    GS Sobers (WI) 	93 	8032 	365* 	57.78 	26 	235 	6/73 	34.03 	6 	109 	0
    SR Waugh (Aus) 	163 	10381 	200 	48.96 	29 	92 	5/28 	36.75 	3 	108 	0
    ST Jayasuriya (SL) 	92 	5865 	340 	38.58 	11 	73 	5/34 	39.28 	1 	68 	0
    Mudassar (Pak)	76 	4114 	231 	38.09 	10 	66 	6/32 	38.36 	1 	48 	0
    BE Congdon (NZ) 	61 	3448 	176 	32.22 	7 	59 	5/65 	36.50 	1 	44 	0
    JR Reid (NZ)  	58  	3428  	142  	33.28  	6  	85  	6/60  	33.35  	1  	43  	1
    Mushtaq Mohd (Pak)	57	3643 	201 	39.17 	10 	79 	5/28 	29.22 	3 	42 	0
    FMM Worrell (WI) 	51 	3860 	261 	49.48 	9 	69 	7/70 	38.72 	2 	43 	0
    											
    Wicket Keeping All Rounders											
    											
    											
    IA Healy (Aus) 	118 	4351 	161* 	27.53 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	364 	29
    MV Boucher (SA) 	111 	4208 	122* 	28.62 	3 	1 	1/6 	6.00 	0 	390 	18
    RW Marsh (Aus) 	96 	3633 	132 	26.51 	3 	0 	- 	- 	0 	343 	12
    APE Knott (Eng) 	95 	4389 	135 	32.75 	5 	- 	- 	- 	- 	250 	19
    AC Gilchrist (Aus)	89 	5143 	204* 	46.33 	15 	- 	- 	- 	- 	351 	32
    SMH Kirmani (India)	88	2759 	102 	27.04 	2 	1 	1/9 	13.00 	0 	160 	38
    PJL Dujon (WI) 	79 	3146 	139 	31.46 	5 	- 	- 	- 	- 	265 	5
    AJ Stewart (Eng) 	76 	4057 	173 	32.98 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	216 	14
    Moin Khan (Pak) 	62 	2459 	137 	28.92 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	122 	20
    RD Jacobs (WI) 	56 	2249 	118 	26.77 	3 	- 	- 	- 	- 	176 	10
    AC Parore (NZ) 	56 	2122 	110 	25.87 	2 	- 	- 	- 	- 	159 	7
    A Flower (Zim) 	51 	4166 	232* 	52.73 	11 	- 	- 	- 	- 	133 	7
    JHB Waite (SA) 	49 	2336 	134 	30.33 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	124 	17
    KC Sangakkara (SL)	40	2658 	230 	39.67 	6 	- 	- 	- 	- 	99 	14
    Kamran Akmal (Pak)	38	2008 	158* 	34.62 	6 	- 	- 	- 	- 	121 	18
    Pl feel free to add, delete, debate before we start the first round of polls.
    Nah, It's an inconsistent comparison to exclude 'minnows' only for those playing post 1992. You could just as easily argue that SL were minnows from 1982 to around 1989 while NZ were undoubtedly giant minnows for around 26 years (with the notable exception the 1949 side). In fact even Ind, WI and SA (to a lesser extent) were minnows in their first few years of Test cricket IMO.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Zinzan; 25-03-2009 at 10:55 PM.

  12. #57
    International Vice-Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinzan12 View Post
    Nah, It's an inconsistent comparison to exclude 'minnows' only for those playing post 1992. You could just as easily argue that SL were minnows from 1982 to around 1989 while NZ were undoubtedly giant minnows for around 26 years (with the notable exception the 1949 side). In fact even Ind, WI and SA (to a lesser extent) were minnows in their first few years of Test cricket IMO.

    Thoughts?
    the issue with sri lanka is within 5 years of their induction they had won test series against india and pakistan. though this is a test team their world cup win proved their cricket was on par with international standards. so it becomes difficult to leave them out. zim and bang have not posed any problem anywhere for anybody. havent really thought about new zealand. were they so bad for so long?

  13. #58
    International Coach Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagapath View Post
    were they so bad for so long?
    Oh yeah, massively so (don't you remember their 26 all out ) and I still reckon you need to look more closely at some scorecards of SL & those other sides I mentioned in their early days. Would do myself, but can't be arsed

  14. #59
    International Coach Zinzan's Avatar
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    Just checked SL's stats.....

    They won only 1 out of the first 20 series between 1981-1992 and just 2 out of their first 40 tests played...now c'mon, surely that's minnow proportions


    Series results

    Sri Lanka - Test matches

    Series/Tournament Season Winner Margin
    England in Sri Lanka Test Match 1981/82 England 1-0 (1)
    Sri Lanka in Pakistan Test Series 1981/82 Pakistan 2-0 (3)
    Sri Lanka in India Test Match 1982/83 drawn 0-0 (1)
    Sri Lanka in New Zealand Test Series 1982/83 New Zealand 2-0 (2)
    Australia in Sri Lanka Test Match 1982/83 Australia 1-0 (1)
    New Zealand in Sri Lanka Test Series 1983/84 New Zealand 2-0 (3)
    Sri Lanka in England Test Match 1984 drawn 0-0 (1)
    India in Sri Lanka Test Series 1985 Sri Lanka 1-0 (3)
    Sri Lanka in Pakistan Test Series 1985/86 Pakistan 2-0 (3)
    Pakistan in Sri Lanka Test Series 1985/86 drawn 1-1 (3)
    Sri Lanka in India Test Series 1986/87 India 2-0 (3)
    New Zealand in Sri Lanka Test Series 1986/87 drawn 0-0 (1)
    Sri Lanka in Australia Test Match 1987/88 Australia 1-0 (1)
    Sri Lanka in England Test Match 1988 England 1-0 (1)
    Sri Lanka in Australia Test Series 1989/90 Australia 1-0 (2)
    Sri Lanka in India Test Match 1990/91 India 1-0 (1)
    Sri Lanka in New Zealand Test Series 1990/91 drawn 0-0 (3)
    Sri Lanka in England Test Match 1991 England 1-0 (1)
    Sri Lanka in Pakistan Test Series 1991/92 Pakistan 1-0 (3)
    Australia in Sri Lanka Test Series 1992 Australia 1-0 (3)

    Might check IND, WI & SA as well ...........No need to check NZ as most are aware it took them something like 44 tests (26 years) to register a test win
    Last edited by Zinzan; 25-03-2009 at 11:54 PM.

  15. #60
    International Vice-Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinzan12 View Post
    Oh yeah, massively so (don't you remember their 26 all out ) and I still reckon you need to look more closely at some scorecards of SL & those other sides I mentioned in their early days. Would do myself, but can't be arsed

    honestly even if you include the minnows it doesnt throw up any new names except vettori as a weak all-rounder. but it would change the stats of some of those cricketers most notably cairns' and kallis'. if these two are ever going to lose any of the polls by narrow margins i will pull up those stats and make the playing field tilt in their favor. is that okay with you?

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