SF Barnes

[Red]

Quite incredible to think Cowdrey faced Lindwall and Miller in his first test match in 1954, then faced Lillee and Thommo in his final series in 1975. Almost 20 years later.

 

[watson]

Interesting comment about off side play. I'll have to read up on the style and line of bowling to check. I think keepers kept back to the fastest bowling back in the golden age as Richardson's and Lockwood's stats suggest in addition to stories about them.

I have never seen a picture where Barnes' keeper stands back. Always up and I'm sure he would have insisted on it. I have a picture in a Frith book showing Minnett cutting at Barnes. Keeper up slips well back. However the slips aren't as deep as those who fielded for Tate. Davis estimated Tate bowled around Kasper's pace based on the depths of his slips. Barnes I believe was slower. Around Kula and Asif's pace. Barnes was the greater bowler though.

Although to be more accurate we say that Barnes was the same (or similar) pace to O'Reilly and DVP Wright, and then watch a video of them bowling back in the 1930s to get a good visual idea.

 

[watson]

Quite incredible to think Cowdrey faced Lindwall and Miller in his first test match in 1954, then faced Lillee and Thommo in his final series in 1975. Almost 20 years later.

Likewise, Rohan Kanhai began his career facing Trueman and Statham and then finished his career facing Snow and Willis.

 

[the big bambino]

Although to be more accurate we say that Barnes was the same (or similar) pace to O'Reilly and DVP Wright, and then watch a video of them bowling back in the 1930s to get a good visual idea.

I think he was quicker but how to measure? The best yardstick I can think of is find a photo of O'Reilly bowling with slips in frame, hope the distance to camera is approximately the same in both photos and measure off their slips. See if they are the same or different.

Actually I know - I could measure off the pitch in both photos bcos thats 22 yards right? Work out a roughly approximate scale from that and use it to measure off the distance to slips.

Yes I know its anal...

 

[the big bambino]

I've just done that admittedly pretty rough check. If I take Barnes' 1st slip and position him behind the keeper in that photo where Minnett cuts at him I'd guesstimate his distance at about 18 to 20 yards.

It was harder getting a reading on O'Reilly from pictures in the same book but I'd guesstimate the distance from stumps to slips at abt 7 yards. In short what you'd expect for a spinner. I have a picture of Hassett getting caught in the slips off Wright and his slips look deepish for a spinner. You may quibble abt the distances measured and I wouldn't certify the claims in this post. What is clear is Barnes' slips are significantly deeper then those of O'Reilly or Wright. Slip depth being a measure of bowling speed would then suggest Barnes' was swifter than either.

 

[archie mac]

Until WW1 cricket was very much an 'off side' game - for example, Wilfred Rhodes was considered a great mid-off and mid-off was a hugely important position. In earlier days hits to leg were considered by many to be 'indecent', even unsporting. Bowlers generally bowled a line more inclined to the off side and the keepers had a clear view. Also most slow spinners looked to turn the ball away from the right handed batsman. If you read the likes of Strudwick or Tiger Smith on the subject they basically say this.

.

I think it changed a lot with Ranji who played a lot of on side shots. Also Clem Hill was a great hooker and started his Test cricket in 1896. I agree it was considered bad sportsmanship to hit to leg but I think by 1896 it was no longer the case.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

I think it changed a lot with Ranji who played a lot of on side shots. Also Clem Hill was a great hooker and started his Test cricket in 1896. I agree it was considered bad sportsmanship to hit to leg but I think by 1896 it was no longer the case.

I suspect you are correct about Ranji.

It was always ok to hit a leg side ball to leg obviously but with bowling being so off side such a delivery was normally a bad mistake from the bowler as was a short delivery..

E.M.Grace was known for 'pulling' straight or even off side balls to leg - believed to be a technique learned because he was given a bat too large for him as a youngster - and this was rather looked down upon.

Ranji was the first to hit straight deliveries to leg wth a 'straight' bat.

 

[archie mac]

I suspect you are correct about Ranji.

It was always ok to hit a leg side ball to leg obviously but with bowling being so off side such a delivery was normally a bad mistake from the bowler as was a short delivery..

E.M.Grace was known for 'pulling' straight or even off side balls to leg - believed to be a technique learned because he was given a bat too large for him as a youngster - and this was rather looked down upon.

Ranji was the first to hit straight deliveries to leg wth a 'straight' bat.

Agree with all that. Off theory was a big factor but didn't work with Ranji. Hill was also known to pull balls pitched short outside off.

 

[L Trumper]

Agree with all that. Off theory was a big factor but didn't work with Ranji. Hill was also known to pull balls pitched short outside off.

Any reason why Hill is not rated as much as trumper? I heard Hill was a very quick scorer too. Also their records are similar and he is also part of the group along with Trumper that rebelled against board at that time. Is his playing style anyway considered vastly different than Victor's or something?

 

[Neil Pickup]

Sounds about right. Waqar has stumping dismissals so keepers have stood up to him despite his pace and swing. Maybe his fuller length and accordingly less bounce made it possible for keepers to do that.

Either that or keepers have stood back to some remarkably dimwitted batsmen.

Also, I see no stumpings.

 

[Coronis]

Either that or keepers have stood back to some remarkably dimwitted batsmen.

Also, I see no stumpings.

I'm pretty sure that page doesn't show how he got his wickets.

 

[the big bambino]

Either that or keepers have stood back to some remarkably dimwitted batsmen.

Also, I see no stumpings.

What about Morkel then? Or McGrath or Marshall or the others I've mentioned. Just how stupid do you think batsmen are? Why is it believable that batsman consistently charged a bowler of Waqar's pace but not that keepers occasionally stand up to them?

Your link was informative but I don't see its relevance.

 

[watson]

Here is a photo of O'Reilly bowling to his slips field (sorry it's not bigger). If someone can find a similar photo of SF Barnes and his slips field, then Bradman was right - O'Reilly and Barnes were similar kinds of bowlers, and therefore probably bowled at the similar speeds.

 

[archie mac]

Any reason why Hill is not rated as much as trumper? I heard Hill was a very quick scorer too. Also their records are similar and he is also part of the group along with Trumper that rebelled against board at that time. Is his playing style anyway considered vastly different than Victor's or something?

Mostly it was a style thing but also Trumper was considered a much better batsman on 'sticky wickets'.

Clem Hill had no doubt who was the better when he said

"as a batsman, I'm not fit to lick Vic's boots"

 

[the big bambino]

Thats a better photo I have of O'Reilly so thanks for that Watson. My wife has scanned the Minnett cutting Barnes photo. She and I will try and upload it here later. Hopefully it all works.

 

[fredfertang]

Thats a better photo I have of O'Reilly so thanks for that Watson. My wife has scanned the Minnett cutting Barnes photo. She and I will try and upload it here later. Hopefully it all works.

Mrs Bambino clearly a superior human being to the estranged Mrs Fertang

 

[kyear2]

Here is a photo of O'Reilly bowling to his slips field (sorry it's not bigger). If someone can find a similar photo of SF Barnes and his slips field, then Bradman was right - O'Reilly and Barnes were similar kinds of bowlers, and therefore probably bowled at the similar speeds.

That is fairly far back, but I recall how surprised I was the first time I saw O'Reilly bowl. He was practically bowling medium pace and I think Underwood was even faster.

 

[the big bambino]

Mrs Bambino clearly a superior human being to the estranged Mrs Fertang

I make no comment on your estrangement except to say I hope the both of you find or have found happiness. My wife is tolerant of my love of cricket but in truth I don't talk the subject with her. A policy I've adopted with anyone other than an outright fan due to the ridicule I've received in the past. This is strange as I'm not as rude when people buttonhole me about their pet topics...

Anyway she sportingly allows me to camp in front of the teev when a game is on and isn't the remotest bit jealous. She is far more adept at computers than I and was happy to try and help me here.

 

[watson]

Here is a short video that includes footage of both O'Reilly and DVP Wright bowling in the 1938 series. Both were quick for leg-spinners with the slips fielder standing back about half a pitch length;

AUSTRALIA WINS THE ASHES - British Pathé

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Here is a photo of O'Reilly bowling to his slips field (sorry it's not bigger). If someone can find a similar photo of SF Barnes and his slips field, then Bradman was right - O'Reilly and Barnes were similar kinds of bowlers, and therefore probably bowled at the similar speeds.

If Bradman ever saw Barnes bowl - and it's not recorded that he did - Barnes would have been well past his best (and fastest) by that time.

Bradman considered O'Reilly superior because "he bowled the googly" - as Barnes replied when told this "I never needed to". He spun his off break from the front of the hand.