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SF Barnes

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Have you considered that just because a bowler can bowl quick, or even generally bowls quick, it doesn't follow that they always do so? Keepers aren't going to stand up to bowlers bowling at 85+mph, but drop the speed back to 80mph and they might (and do today), especially on flat wickets. I'm pretty sure i've seen England keepers standing up to Anderson in ODIs, and on occasion he touches 90mph. Broad similarly was touching 90mph a couple of summers ago, but has spent the last year struggling to reach 80. (although there have been suggestions that variations have in part been down to different interpretations of the speed gun).
Good. Now tell me, how many stumpings are there off Anderson and Broad, who generally don't bowl very quick even if they can? Let's drop the pace further, and use Kapil Dev, Aaqib Javed and Chaminda Vaas for an example. So that means Kiran More, Rashid Latif and Prasanna Jayawardane are no where close to keeping skills of 1900s?

And anyway pace isn't everything. Before his ban, Asif was consistently judged one of the best bowlers in the world, and yet he rarely bowled much above 80mph.
Irrelevent. Scope of my argument is that fast bowlers' pace, in 1900s have been overestimated or hyped up by the cricket historians, according to some here are prophets.

As for the previous suggestion that you can determine what Barnes bowled from going and experimenting with various deliveries yourself in the nets - well maybe, although have you considered taking this ability to emulate one of the all-time great bowlers and putting yourself forward for a trial at a top side?
What I just did was to try out what I thought,a dn found that the certain style creates lot of drift. I never said I bowled close to that speed or got that much of turn or drift as Barnes. And other points have shown were by observing many great bowlers and on laws of physics. And I can assure that Physics >>> Barnes
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Restating points effectively dealt with. Curious, I looked up pictures of Mold. He looks tall and trim. The film where he bowls to Hornby is not a serious net. Mold walks up to the wicket, only reaching a gentle jog before he lets the ball go. He is 38 yo in that film, a little heavier than his earlier pictures though not fat. Apparently he put on weight after he retired though.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Restating points effectively dealt with. Curious, I looked up pictures of Mold. He looks tall and trim. The film where he bowls to Hornby is not a serious net. Mold walks up to the wicket, only reaching a gentle jog before he lets the ball go. He is 38 yo in that film, a little heavier than his earlier pictures though not fat. Apparently he put on weight after he retired though.
Hey mate, good point. It's also annoying when the rubbish WG who when a young fellow looked perfect picture of a fit athlete.

As in most of these type of arguments I tend to become bored as the 'ill informed' refused to learn anything and just keep repeating the same arguments. :sleep:
 

Jager

International Debutant
Good. Now tell me, how many stumpings are there off Anderson and Broad, who generally don't bowl very quick even if they can? Let's drop the pace further, and use Kapil Dev, Aaqib Javed and Chaminda Vaas for an example. So that means Kiran More, Rashid Latif and Prasanna Jayawardane are no where close to keeping skills of 1900s?
You could genuinely make the argument that wicketkeeping skills were more skillful back then, what with sticky wickets causing the ball to jump everywhere.

Why would there be a reason for stumpings from the bowling of those players? Stumpings are often a result of an aggressive shot (dancing, use of feet etc.) that has gone wrong against a spinner. If a wicketkeeper stands up to a pace bowler, you can be damn sure that the batsman will be taking guard in his crease and I would highly doubt that they'd be keen to wander down the wicket...
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Careful AM you might get a school marmish rebuke for being impolite or something. :) But your point abt WG is accurate. He was a fit athlete in his prime and had the skill to remain competitive when his physique became less than adonis like as a natural consequence of aging.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Careful AM you might get a school marmish rebuke for being impolite or something. :) But your point abt WG is accurate. He was a fit athlete in his prime and had the skill to remain competitive when his physique became less than adonis like as a natural consequence of aging.
Nah, they all know I am harmless and tend to put my abuse down to old age:D

WG, the only one you can say was better than Bradman and not appear a complete fool
 

the big bambino

International Captain
I think WG deserves the no.1 spot. I've checked Mold's figures. He had 7 stumping dismissals in his career or about 0.4% of the total which is negligible. It makes sense though if you understand the context of his employment which would have been typical of an old county pro (though Mold has a credit for playing for the gents! - curious).

Finances were tight and the counties liked to get the most out of their best bowlers. So you get Mold and one or 2 others, like Johnny Briggs bowling the bulk of Lancashire's overs. For Mold that would have been abt 5000 balls every 4 months of the fc season.

Thats alot of work for a pace man. Why would he spend all his resources bowling fast when he was able to seam the ball at a slower pace on pitches that encouraged that style of bowling? After all he was known for getting alot of movement when bowling fast. It would have made sense if he cut his pace and still get wickets that way. It would have increased his value to his club and less taxing on himself too. When you see that he and Briggs practically bowled the season through for Lancashire it suggests that Mold had to develop a slower style to maintain his stamina and effectiveness after the ball lost its shine. Though famed for his pace he was employed as a stock bowler too. Its no wonder he became a dual purpose bowler.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
You could genuinely make the argument that wicketkeeping skills were more skillful back then, what with sticky wickets causing the ball to jump everywhere.
I could very easily put the counter argument that it was easy because the bowling was not quick enough.

Why would there be a reason for stumpings from the bowling of those players?
Because these are the bowlers who were medium fast and who were very accurate during modern times. Keeper will not stand up to an erratic bowler nor a one sending thunderbolts. Modern keepers rarely stood up to above three who were easily the most accurate of the lot with Gavin Larsen.

Stumpings are often a result of an aggressive shot (dancing, use of feet etc.) that has gone wrong against a spinner. If a wicketkeeper stands up to a pace bowler, you can be damn sure that the batsman will be taking guard in his crease and I would highly doubt that they'd be keen to wander down the wicket...
So that means batsmen of yesteryear did charge down the wicket against so called medium pacers and were more aggressive than their modern counterparts?

Stumpings off medium pacers come due to over balancing or batsman stretching to play a defensive shot or a drive. It necessarily need not to be an aggressive stroke. But still there is no explanation why medium pacers of yesteryear had more stumpings than modern counterparts.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Restating points effectively dealt with. Curious, I looked up pictures of Mold. He looks tall and trim. The film where he bowls to Hornby is not a serious net. Mold walks up to the wicket, only reaching a gentle jog before he lets the ball go. He is 38 yo in that film, a little heavier than his earlier pictures though not fat. Apparently he put on weight after he retired though.
That means TBB seen him bowling in serious net sessions! These are hilarious / apologetic / wishful thinking explanations. The fact is that Mold has a appalling action and with that action (and no follow through at all) you cannot expect him to be seriously fast at least. I mean here the mean pace of a Steyn, Waqar, Shoaib or a Holding not Peter Siddles etc. Unless any one could prove that Mold was just joking around in that clip with concrete evidence (not wishful thinking), I stay in my opinion that his action is utter crap.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
I think WG deserves the no.1 spot. I've checked Mold's figures. He had 7 stumping dismissals in his career or about 0.4% of the total which is negligible. It makes sense though if you understand the context of his employment which would have been typical of an old county pro (though Mold has a credit for playing for the gents! - curious).
The slowest of great bowlers like Dev and Botham has none. No need to mention the quicker ones. Ian Healy, Rashid Latif and Rod Marsh are among the best stumpers the game has ever seen as well.

Thats alot of work for a pace man. Why would he spend all his resources bowling fast when he was able to seam the ball at a slower pace on pitches that encouraged that style of bowling? After all he was known for getting alot of movement when bowling fast. It would have made sense if he cut his pace and still get wickets that way. It would have increased his value to his club and less taxing on himself too. When you see that he and Briggs practically bowled the season through for Lancashire it suggests that Mold had to develop a slower style to maintain his stamina and effectiveness after the ball lost its shine. Though famed for his pace he was employed as a stock bowler too. Its no wonder he became a dual purpose bowler
Good explanation, but bowlers are named after what they do with their stock ball. And this was a time where seam and swing was unknown or at least not wisely used. But to call a bowler who bowl 110k cutters most of the time an express pace bowler is a joke. And in the above clip he is not bowling cutters, but pacy stuff. The fact that his action is appalling still stands.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
That means TBB seen him bowling in serious net sessions! These are hilarious / apologetic / wishful thinking explanations. The fact is that Mold has a appalling action and with that action (and no follow through at all) you cannot expect him to be seriously fast at least. I mean here the mean pace of a Steyn, Waqar, Shoaib or a Holding not Peter Siddles etc. Unless any one could prove that Mold was just joking around in that clip with concrete evidence (not wishful thinking), I stay in my opinion that his action is utter crap.
Oh yes. I think I remember you now. You were one of the gents in a top hat. Must have been you to know Mold was bowling seriously. :D

Do you watch cricket? Anyone who has knows when a bowler is taking a net seriously. Whether its Mold walking up to a stump and idly rolling his arm over or Mitch Johnson bowling over his wrist.

Just as an aside beligerently rehashing your opinions after they have been dealt with is not impressing anyone.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Again with the Mold clip. He was rising 38 there at a time when the age of mortality in Britain was late 40's, don't think I'm venturing into dodgy territory in saying that the overwhelming majority of quick bowlers deteriorate after 30 years of age. He was called for throwing the year before and the bloke he was bowling to was 50+, I don't think it's controversial either to say he was bowling half-rat there.
 
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watson

Banned
Again with the Mold clip. He was rising 38 there at a time when the age of mortality in Britain was late 40's. Don't think I'm venturing into dodgy territory in saying that the overwhelming majority of quick bowlers deteriorate after 30 years of age and I don't think it's controversial to say he was bowling half-rat there. He was called for throwing the year before, after all.
I don't think Mold could bowl fast because his action would not allow it, even if he was young and trying his best.

From what I've seen his sort of round arm is pretty much the same action that my grandmother used to use when playing beach cricket.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Please don't take that as anything but a little dig Watson. No harm intended.

Btw the no. of stumpings is irrelevant. The fact we have seen keepers stand up to pace bowlers now tells you it can be done. Tactics have changed. The reason keepers stand back now is that its been reasoned that more chances are held from pace men standing back. It is only ever employed as a defensive reason now to keep batsmen back in the crease.

Also far from being unheard of pace bowlers back then could seam the ball as any contemporary reports of Richardson, Lockwood and Mold will reveal. Swing too if you read abt Hirst. But what would they know? I mean they were only there at the time.
 
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the big bambino

International Captain
Just checked Marshall's fc stats. Shows he picked up a wicket as stumped. There you go. Marshall wasn't fast. Just a spinner really. And got fat when he retired. No one with a physique like that could bowl fast. Glad we cleared that up.

EDIT. Others with stumpings to their list include Statham, Larwood, Hall, Procter as well as Botham. All fatties whose bowling reminded me of my gramps playing beach cricket. Btw can a bowler as tubby as Botham actually bowl quick? To say nothing of chubby spinner Imran K who also has a couple of stumpings to his credit.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
We need to understand the terms we use - their meaning, what they imply and what we tend to understand their meaning to be. Unfortunately these are not always the same. So the terms spin (thereby spinner), break (off or leg), cut (off or leg - in or out), swerve (in or out - from off or from leg), swing (in or out) - all mean something, imply something and people understand from them what they think they understand from wherever they read/hear the terms used. I have no intention to get into the silly/childish and mindless game of having the last word that is going on here so please continue - the pleasure is entirely your own - if any :). However, let me try and clarify the terms. Because it is obvious that some people in the argument use the definition (as they understand it) others use what the term implies and yet others what it has come to mean to them,

Spin
Definition : It is the most general term as far as definition goes. almost every bowler who ever bowled from the very first one to roll the ball along the ground to a stool or tree trunk to the under arm length pitcher, round arm and over arm bowlers till the modern day. Every bowler bowling slow or fast, off and leg breaks to in swings and outswings imparts spin on the ball. Why even when you throw the ball flat at hundred miles per hour plus at the wicket keeper from point you cant help imparting spin to the ball. So those who use definitions to decide who is a spinner and who is not do it at their own 'peril'

Implied meaning Keeping the silly implication of the spin that is imparted every time we fling a sphere away from us, what the cricketers meant by the term when it was first used to describe a type of bowling, referred to spin imparted by a bowler intentionally. Thus the first rollers along the ground did not spin the ball. The ground being so rough and uneven, it was quite a job even to send the ball straight along the ground to hit the 'wicket'. However they soon realised the value of imparting spin, only leg spin in the beginning to cause more difficulties to the batsmen. pitching at a length (as against rolling) brought in off spin to be added to leg spin. The former using the fingers to impart the spin and the latter using the wrist.giving rise to the terms finger spinners and wrist-spinner.

This had nothing WHATSOEVER to do with speed. The fastest of bowlers such as the Demon, Fred Spofforth imparted spin to the ball and this was the only way to make the ball deviate laterally for many decades even after test cricket started in the 1870's. Remember first class cricket started a century earlier.

It also has nothing to do with flight. In fact, any bowler who bowled after rolling along the ground went out of fashion, flighted the ball.

Understanding the term This really depends on the person using the term. Initially since bowlers did nothing but impart spin to the ball, all bowlers were called spin bowlers (slow or fast) or break bowlers (initially off break/break back and left arm leg break) - break being the abilty to use the spin to wilfully and consistently make the ball deviate on landing.

Over time the general term off spin was not used so much for the quicker bowlers who came to be known as bowlers of the 'break-back' which was the most popular form of weapon in the fast bowers armoury but in describing even the fastest bowlers of that time the word spin and flight are used time and again by all writers of the game.

Over time bowlers started using the seam to both move the ball in the air and off the pitch and the words swing and cut gained currency. It is possible that some of the earlier break back bowlers actually cut the ball where too the fingers are used to impart side-ways rotation to the ball but since the term break and spin were more prevalent we did not use these terms then. No one is able to say for sure who was the first to bowl an off cutter or a leg cutter as distinct from an off break or a leg-break for example.

Through usage, it has bow come to be understood by the common cricket fan that off-break, off-spin, flight are terms meant for the slower bowlers. But in effect, such distinctions have been made by the users over time which has neither to do with what those terms actually mean nor provide us with a consistent word picture of what they have been used to depict over time.

By the way, I have seen the word, swing used often to describe Barnes’ movement in the air including by the great man himself describing what he bowled. Others too have talked of his ‘swing’. I guess when the swing bowling became more commonplace even those older cricketers who were not using the term in their playing days started using it to describe lateral movement in the air.

. . . more later
 

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