SF Barnes

[Top_Cat]

He did in the early days. WC 1992, hooped them in.

 

[shankar]

So basically, Barnes was a Kumble who bowled more side-spin instead of over-spin?

 

[the big bambino]

No. Barnes had a leg break at least.

 

[kyear2]

lol

Plus both O'Reilly and Barnes were faster than Kumble. So were Verity and Underwood.

 

[shankar]

No. Barnes had a leg break at least.

That's what the 'side-spin instead of overspin' part was referring to.

 

[Migara]

I always used to imagine something like what Chris Harris bowled (with a less ridiculous action obviously), but judging by this Peebles source that I will again quote:

Chris Harris and Salim Malik indeed bowled legcutters than drifted in. since he bowled front of the hand variety he did not get much spin. But the same back of the hand variety drifts more and spins more as well.

 

[SJS]

So basically, Barnes was a Kumble who bowled more side-spin instead of over-spin?

NO that's not the basic difference between them . . . there is much more to it.

1. Barnes bowled with the new ball, Kumble didn't.
2. Barnes was one of the best new ball bowlers in the history of the game - not Kumble
3. Barnes moved the bal very sharp and very late in to the batsman - Kumble couldn't
4. Barnes made the ball move very sharply off the pitch from leg stump to hit the off stump - Kumble's leg breaks turned negligibly if at all.

Not to mention that Barnes bowled with great success both at home and away including against Australia - not Kumble.

They were a bit different

 

[Daemon]

From the looks of it he bowled a lot like skippos who gets drift, dip and turn at ~100kph

 

[SJS]

From the looks of it he bowled a lot like skippos who gets drift, dip and turn at ~100kph

Skippos ?

Barnes bowled what was never bowled before him and has never been bowled since. Leg breaks that 'swung' (I use the term for that is what people call movement in the air in the modern era) late and very sharp and a helluva lot.

He bowled deliveries that started in a line outside the off stump and then at the last minute 'swung' in sharply to land on the leg stump, then, having squared up the batsman completely, they would move off the pitch in the opposite direction to hit the top of off.

The kind of movement he got in the air is nothing like what is understood from drift. And the movement in the opposite direction is something that has not been bowled with deliberation and control by anyone down the history of the game. Only Bedser managed to bowl a ball like that a few times and he had Bradman, no less, in serious strife.

You have to understand, down the years, a century and more now, no other bowler has been called the greatest bowler of all time by so many world class cricketers as this man. Even those who saw him bowl in his fifties came away with wonder in their eyes and these are not star struck fans, we are talking of world class cricketers.

 

[shankar]

NO that's not the basic difference between them . . . there is much more to it.

1. Barnes bowled with the new ball, Kumble didn't.
2. Barnes was one of the best new ball bowlers in the history of the game - not Kumble
3. Barnes moved the bal very sharp and very late in to the batsman - Kumble couldn't
4. Barnes made the ball move very sharply off the pitch from leg stump to hit the off stump - Kumble's leg breaks turned negligibly if at all.

Not to mention that Barnes bowled with great success both at home and away including against Australia - not Kumble.

They were a bit different

Oh I was not talking about the quality of the bowlers. Just wanted to confirm my understanding of the type of the bowler he was based on the discussion on the previous page. I used Kumble as a comparison as a spinner who bowled at pace without much flight. However because Kumble bowled overspin he didn't get drift or much spin. Barnes bowling side-spin at a similar (?) pace, would have got drift into and spin away from the batsman.

A better way to put it is that he seems a mixture between Kumble and Warne*. Like the former in terms of speed and (lack of) flight and like the latter in terms of drift and spin.

*Note again - Only talking about bowling type, not quality.

 

[SJS]

Oh I was not talking about the quality of the bowlers. Just wanted to confirm my understanding of the type of the bowler he was based on the discussion on the previous page. I used Kumble as a comparison as a spinner who bowled at pace without much flight. However because Kumble bowled overspin he didn't get drift or much spin. Barnes bowling side-spin at a similar (?) pace, would have got drift into and spin away from the batsman.

A better way to put it is that he seems a mixture between Kumble and Warne*. Like the former in terms of speed and (lack of) flight and like the latter in terms of drift and spin.

*Note again - Only talking about bowling type, not quality.

I understand

It is more a mixture of O'Reilly/Warne/Bedser minus the googly.

Different from O'reilly because he did not bowl the googly, turned the leg break more and 'swung' the ball in consistently. Similar to O'reilly in the high action, the bowling of leg breaks at pace without the ****ed wrist and the accuracy'

Different from Warne in every respect except the big turn he got on his leg break. Of course, tossing it up, Warne got even more lateral movement albeit at lower speed. Barnes lateral movement was considerable and at his pace more than enough.

Different from Bedser in that he did not bowl with the seam up or cutters. Similar to Bedser in that he too 'swung' the ball late in the air and made other deliveries break away on pitching. Sometimes, Bedser was known to combine the two movements a la Barnes.

 

[shankar]

He bowled deliveries that started in a line outside the off stump and then at the last minute 'swung' in sharply to land on the leg stump, then, having squared up the batsman completely, they would move off the pitch in the opposite direction to hit the top of off.

This sounds almost exactly like Warne's ball to Gatting. Could you clarify in what way it's different from a leg-spin bowler's drift.

 

[the big bambino]

I was going to just now mention the comparison with Bedser. Bedser bowled a famous delivery at Bradman in Adelaide that swung in late, pitched on leg and broke away to take off. The Don called it the best ball to take his wkt. Well that is the type of ball Barnes bowled almost at will and as described by Altham in one of my posts above. Think Barnes then think Bedser except he was even better than the Surrey great.

I'm also guessing that the side spin swervers like Noble could perhaps be compared in pace, inswing and leg cut to say India's stormy petrel Lala Armanath.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

So he moved that ball both ways in the very same delivery? That's amazing, have only seen Akram do that and only the once against a lucky Robert Croft.

 

[the big bambino]

I've edited my last post to say Bedser's famous delivery swung in to pitch on leg and break away to hit off. (not leg as I previously said). And yes Agent N it is how witnesses to it described Barnes' bowling though I'd also say he was definitely slower than Akram based on those same accounts.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I've edited my last post to say Bedser's famous delivery swung in to pitch on leg and break away to hit off. (not leg as I previously said). And yes Agent N it is how witnesses to it described Barnes' bowling though I'd also say he was definitely slower than Akram based on those same accounts.

Akram's famous delivery to Croft seemed like it swung both ways in the air (went in first and then extremely late outswing from about leg stump), however on closer inspection it actually only swung out late. That in movement at the start of the delivery was due to the angle he was bowling at.

Junaid is also pretty good with the angles he uses, especially when he was bowling around the wicket in Sri Lanka (got a lot of wickets that way).

 

[SJS]

Akram's famous delivery to Croft seemed like it swung both ways in the air (went in first and then extremely late outswing from about leg stump), however on closer inspection it actually only swung out late. That in movement at the start of the delivery was due to the angle he was bowling at.

Junaid is also pretty good with the angles he uses, especially when he was bowling around the wicket in Sri Lanka (got a lot of wickets that way).

The floater too, like what Prasanna was a master of, moves away in the air in flight but on pitching continues to hold its line rather than change course and come back.

 

[shankar]

Warne's 'ball of the century' - 'Swings' in, pitches outside leg, breaks away to hit off leaving batsman squared up. Sounds exactly like the description of Barnes' delivery.

 

[kyear2]

Barnes bowled spin, thought that was agreed on already.

 

[the big bambino]

True Shankar. Barnes bowled it repeatedly and at a medium fast pace.