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Your All-time Top 5's

archie mac

International Coach
I'll give this a go, although I wont comment or include any players I haven't seen play as I think that is just stupid. To rate a player on reading others opinions would be akin to thinking that all posters on this forum have the same opinions on modern players. Its just not true and smacks of romantasism.

:

If all posters on here had the same opinion then that might make sense, but when every contemporary describes Trumper as a great stylists then it might be safe to assume that he was:)


I think it silly for people to say I can't believe anything I read on past cricketers, if you only read one book then fair enough but if you have read a lot about lets say WW Armstrong then you will have a almost complete idea of how good a batsman he was
 

Trumpers_Ghost

U19 Cricketer
If all posters on here had the same opinion then that might make sense, but when every contemporary describes Trumper as a great stylists then it might be safe to assume that he was:)


I think it silly for people to say I can't believe anything I read on past cricketers, if you only read one book then fair enough but if you have read a lot about lets say WW Armstrong then you will have a almost complete idea of how good a batsman he was
I'm sorry if that thats what you understood from my post, but it was not the intention. What I was trying to say is that words written in an historical context have a inherriant bias whether deliberate or not (usually not). And remember that the writer does not have the ability to compare with a base study that I or you have seen with our own eyes.

In no way am I saying don't read historical books, or don't believe historical books, just that it is folly to make comparisons between individuals when the evidence for one is some prosse and maybe some grainy highlights footage agianst one who's eveidence is from first hand experience.
 

archie mac

International Coach
I'm sorry if that thats what you understood from my post, but it was not the intention. What I was trying to say is that words written in an historical context have a inherriant bias whether deliberate or not (usually not). And remember that the writer does not have the ability to compare with a base study that I or you have seen with our own eyes.

In no way am I saying don't read historical books, or don't believe historical books, just that it is folly to make comparisons between individuals when the evidence for one is some prosse and maybe some grainy highlights footage agianst one who's eveidence is from first hand experience.
I don't agree, look at Richard's view on Matt the batt?

He watched him and that is what I thinks, I watched him and think something quite different.

What I am saying is that if 99% of contemporary people/writers thought Trumper a graceful batsman then I think it folly to ignore that when say picking a team of pretty batsman
 

Trumpers_Ghost

U19 Cricketer
I actually think your example is exactly what I'm getting at.

Richard has bias against Hayden -> provides distorted view to others that may take it on face value

just think first hand evidence >>>far more conclusive>>>> that colating the opinions of others.

And the two methods should not be intertwined to make comparisons

cheers
 

archie mac

International Coach
I actually think your example is exactly what I'm getting at.

Richard has bias against Hayden -> provides distorted view to others that may take it on face value

just think first hand evidence >>>far more conclusive>>>> that colating the opinions of others.

And the two methods should not be intertwined to make comparisons

cheers
Not to pester you:happy:

But the point I am making is that Richard is one opinion but if we took 100 people and 95 said he was a fine opener then people in 100 years time would think if a fine opener, unless they read the book on Matt the Batt written by Richard:laugh:
 

Trumpers_Ghost

U19 Cricketer
"What I am saying is that if 99% of contemporary people/writers thought Trumper a graceful batsman then I think it folly to ignore that when say picking a team of pretty batsman"

(note- I still haven't worked out how to quote only part of posts yet)

What you say above I actually agree with.

Its more A is better B sorta stuff that I problem with
 

Trumpers_Ghost

U19 Cricketer
Not to pester you:happy:

But the point I am making is that Richard is one opinion but if we took 100 people and 95 said he was a fine opener then people in 100 years time would think if a fine opener, unless they read the book on Matt the Batt written by Richard:laugh:
And what an awful read it would be :laugh:
 

archie mac

International Coach
"What I am saying is that if 99% of contemporary people/writers thought Trumper a graceful batsman then I think it folly to ignore that when say picking a team of pretty batsman"

(note- I still haven't worked out how to quote only part of posts yet)

What you say above I actually agree with.

Its more A is better B sorta stuff that I problem with
I don't know how to do it either, what I do is quote the whole post and then delete what I don't want, it will work as long as you don't remove the (quote) sign at each end of the post:)
 

Demon43

Cricket Spectator
Openers
Sir Jack Hobbs
Herbet sutclifffe
Matthew Hayden
Sunil Gavaskar
Barry Richards

Middle order
Don Bradman
Vivian Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Graeme Pollock

All rounders
Sir Garfield Sobers
Richie Benuad
Jacques Kallis
Imran Khan

Wicket Keepers
Gilchrist
Healey
Marsh
Flower
Sangakkara

Fast Bowlers
Curtly Ambrose
Courtney Walsh
Malcolm Marshall
Micheal Holding
Glenn Mcgrath

Spin Bowlers
Warne
Murali
Laker
Clarrie Grimmet
O'rielly
 
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Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
And we're back to the whole "what did SF Barnes bowl" business once again...

Oh sure, we all agree he's the "greatest of all time", but no-one really seems to know if he was a fast bowler, fast/medium, medium, medium/slow, seamer, fingerspinner, swerve-and-drift merchant, or (and I think you may be in the minority on this one Richard) wristspinner.

Given that we in truth have very little idea about such basic facts about his bowling, it feels a bit glib to set him on such an unassailable pedestal.
Zaremba,

Richie Benaud was interviewed by tosspot Nicholas during our summer out here, and one of the things he related was SF Barnes bowling the first over, in an honorary capacity, of a tour match for one of the counties v Australia in (I think) 1953.

Benaud noted he was a medium pacer who bowled cutters and swingers, much as a precursor to Alec Bedser.

Thought that might interest you.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Zaremba,

Richie Benaud was interviewed by tosspot Nicholas during our summer out here, and one of the things he related was SF Barnes bowling the first over, in an honorary capacity, of a tour match for one of the counties v Australia in (I think) 1953.

Benaud noted he was a medium pacer who bowled cutters and swingers, much as a precursor to Alec Bedser.

Thought that might interest you.
Thanks Burgey - very interesting. I agree with your description of Mark Nicholas by the way.
 

0RI0N

State 12th Man
Sir Donald Bradman argued that W.J O'Reilly must have been a greater bowler than Barnes because he commanded every ball developed in Barnes's day--plus the googly.I told Barnes of Bradman's remark.
"It's quite true,"he said,"I never bowled the 'googly.'"
Then with a glint in his eye,he added, "I never needed it."
From Sir Neville Cardus's tribute to SF Barnes - 1963 Centenary edition of Wisden
/
I think that sums up Barnes quite nicely.He was a Fast medium who could do almost anything with the ball.Barnes's contemporary,Wilfred Rhodes describes him as a 'very fine medium paced bowler.'

He also remains the only man to be picked for England whilst playing league and minor cricket,instead of county cricket.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Ah it's a fair cop Sean. It did indeed come across as a bit self-satisfied. I blame the drink!

I didn't mean to cause any real offence, and I hope I didn't.

Anyhow as I've said elsewhere I just thought Healy was over-rated. I'm the first to admit I'm not a great judge of a keeper's technical ability. His poor Ashes in 1989 always left a feeling in my mind that he wasn't the real deal and for some reason I never really shook that off even though I'll admit he improved. Anyhow I realise I'm in a tiny minority here but hey.
Fair play mate - I was probably a little defensive and soap-boxish myself. :)
 

archie mac

International Coach
Sir Donald Bradman argued that W.J O'Reilly must have been a greater bowler than Barnes because he commanded every ball developed in Barnes's day--plus the googly.I told Barnes of Bradman's remark.
"It's quite true,"he said,"I never bowled the 'googly.'"
Then with a glint in his eye,he added, "I never needed it."
From Sir Neville Cardus's tribute to SF Barnes - 1963 Centenary edition of Wisden
/
I think that sums up Barnes quite nicely.He was a Fast medium who could do almost anything with the ball.Barnes's contemporary,Wilfred Rhodes describes him as a 'very fine medium paced bowler.'

He also remains the only man to be picked for England whilst playing league and minor cricket,instead of county cricket.
Well that is where the confusion kicks in, if he was fast medium why would he bowl the bosie? Or was he about the pace of Kumble?

Love that story by Sir Nev:happy:
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Hayden's was always top class and was extremely hard done by in the 1990's.
No, he wasn't. He was not good enough, was shown to be not good enough, and those who were far better (Taylor, Slater and Elliott) played instead. Hayden only ever played as an injury fill-in before 1999/2000.
Only playing against the West Indies in Australia and South Africa in South Africa and outperformed Mark Taylor, who was already well set at International level.
Actually he performed very poorly apart from a single innings, in which he was dropped on some estimates 5 times (and 1 of the bowlers was Patterson Thompson BTW, who might just be the worst bowler ever to play Test cricket). Outperforming Mark Taylor at that time, who was woefully out-of-sorts, is no achievement of the slightest note whatsoever.
He struggled to find his feet in South Africa in his earlier days but 2002 in South Africa proved that once he was well established at Test level and the pressure was off his back that he could play any conditions with ease.

Steve Waugh's testiment of Hayden dominating Donald, Ntini, Kallis & Nel on a hard Johnnasburg pitch (in 2002) and even going as far as to say that it was embarrassing to bat with Hayden, because Hayden was so good, speaks for itself. Especially coming from such a great figure like Steve Waugh. I mean, Waugh, Langer or Ponting would probably know better then anyone else.
It's really rather amusing to suggest that knock at The Wanderers in 2001/02 proves anything particularly good about a batsman. Apart from the fact he was dropped by Kallis off an easy slip chance, the attack was a useless one. Donald was a skeleton of a once magnificent bowler; Ntini was pretty poor at that stage; Nel was utterly useless at that stage; and Kallis has always been hot-and-cold and was hot just once in 10 shots that series (which wasn't that match). Any fool who can bash weak bowling could've dominated that attack, especially on what was a very flat pitch (the SAfricans later made it look a minefield - if you looked only at the scorecard that is rather than watching the actual dismissals) and especially if you receive such an easy let-off.
Open your eyes mate, if anything it "utterly laughable" then it's your assessment that Hayden can't be considered one of the best openers of all-time. He may not be the best, but he is definately right up there.
No, he isn't. Any decent seam-bowler could, and did throughout his career, sort him out. The standard of seam-bowling declined in 2001/02 and pitches around the globe flattened out to an extreme degree. Hayden has always been excellent at bashing poor-quality seamers, but has never been any good against good-quality ones. From 2001/02 to 2007/08, such bowling was pretty rare, and as such he was only exposed relatively infrequently. Before then, however, he was exposed every single time he stepped into Test cricket.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I love how we hear that Atherton et al debuted to early or retired too late...but poor Hayden with his 7 tests in the 90s can't catch a break. :laugh:
 
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Michaelf7777777

International Debutant
Why James? I only know he kept for NZ in the 30s (I think), what about Keith Andrew?
I was struggling to think of a 5th to be honest so I let bias creep in a little bit but I remember reading in a book published in the early to mid 1990's by Joseph Romanoes/ Jonathan Millnillow with a title along the lines of 100 greatest New Zealand cricketers that he was a brillant keeper for NZ to the spin of Merritt and Blunt and that apparantly after he moved tgo England, Alec Bedser thought he was the best keeper ever to keep to his bowling although James was in his late 30's past his prime and near retirement by that stage.

I'd also come to think of it bring in Billy Murdoch at 5 on my Batsman-Keeper's list
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Javid is one the most underrated test batsman for mine, yes his record againt windies is questionable but one thing to put in to context is Pakistan matches with WI during the 80's were played on very bowler friendly pitches and a lot of batsman through out in those matches. There is also a case of Miandad getting favors from home umpires again I feel thats an overblown theory, Miandad also has a pretty decent away record which shows his quality as a batsman. For me Javaid was one of the best clutch batsman in his times.
Completely agree Xuhaib, I always thought Javed was a magnificent player - whenever Australia played Pakistan when I was growing up, he was always the batsman I most wanted to see the back of. Unquestionably one of the greats of his generation and IMO still Pakistan's best ever.
 

0RI0N

State 12th Man
Well that is where the confusion kicks in, if he was fast medium why would he bowl the bosie? Or was he about the pace of Kumble?

Love that story by Sir Nev:happy:
/
He could pitch the ball outside of leg,and it would end up hitting off(according to Herbert Strudwick&Clem Hill),all off medium fast. He could cut the ball both ways at speed.
THAT is what made him a great bowler.
Funnily enough it was Archie MacLaren who invited Barnes to the Old Trafford nets.
 

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